What’s the ideal, scalable schooling scenario in your opinion?
Discussion
Scalable is a myth, parenting/education doesn’t need to be mass produced
So parents should teach their own?
It’s almost like kids teach themselves and parents are touch points for guidance when stuck
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I’m a teacher and over the years I have found it way more rewarding to facilitate the learning of my students. Teach them concepts, facilitate learning…
This is pretty much spot on.
I think the children are there to teach the parents more than the other way around.
What would a child teach a parent?
Totally agree - the centre we are building in Madeira will have that as a core principle. Parents will be unlearning their schooling via kids who are free to problem solve with a beginners mind
What exactly would a parent be unlearning? Arithmetic? The scientific method? How to structure an expository piece of writing? Figurative language techniques? Math facts?
How they were conditioned by their parents / their schooling exp etc - their addiction to achieve strive for praise
Why would you assume that students have been conditioned to strive for praise?
Because we are all conditioned to seek external praise validation from the schooling system. Gold stars / good exam results good university - this is how our society is structured
Most of my students work hard because it makes them feel good, and the external rewards are secondary. Hunters, warriors, queens, and everyone else who has come before us did things for recognition from their communities and peers. In the north, hunters were given wolverine furs to wear on their hoods to show that they were the best hunters and could stay out on the ice the longest. If you want to replace this system, what would you replace it with? The developers of nostr are probably doing their work because they find it rewarding intrinsically but there is no harm in external recognition from the community.
Curious about your level of education
Level? As in certificates?
Can I ask, what does someone’s level of education tell you about them?
On its own not much
I think we tend to confuse “schooling” with “education”. To me, someone’s level of schooling of very different from their level of education.
*is very different
Fair enough. I am just trying to assess how much schooling the people had - the ones who say school = bad.
I’m not judging, just want some context behind their claims. I can certainly understand how schooling past a certain point produces worker drones without creativity. But I’m also a practical person who needs to hear practical solutions not just fluff ideas. I mean those are fine too, I’m just trying to assess how much thought someone really put into their ideas.
Very open to everything but also question all of it.
Questioning everything is a fundamental principle for us too. School doesn’t incentivise this. Our project will have everything focused around problem solving , critical thinking and lateral thinking. We will have a robotics lab, coding and also an ex special forces soldier showing problem solving through making fires etc but kids choose what they learn
I like the sound of it. I don’t think I disagree with anything here. Not sure about not incentivizing questioning - because naturally when you learn you tend to have more questions.
Agree with you- schooling system doesn’t incentivise questioning because if every kid question the information they were receiving it would be chaos in a classroom 😂
Not true.
As teachers we are always asking our students to question their ideas, the ideas of their peers, and to question our instruction. It’s the complete opposite. Our classrooms are a place that fuels curiosity and allow children to explore the world through their own understanding and worldview.
I don’t think teachers are being attacked, I think it’s the idea of schooling as sort of an industrial production line. Your classroom sounds like a pleasant learning experience, but unfortunately, more often than not, kids end up in schools and classrooms that don’t nurture their curiosity for various reasons, e.g class size, needing to “get through”curriculum, teaching for testing etc
It’s a fallacy. It’s not a production line. Every school is different, every classroom is different, and every teacher is different. Yes, the curriculum is the same, but we all bring our own personal philosophy to it.
Also, are you talking about private schools or government schools?
I’ve taught in both. Aboriginal schools too.
When children are forced to go to school and to follow a curriculum then they are having to conform - this is the production line. There are amazing teachers out there my whole family are teachers but the school system is founded on coercion
Come on. Coercion? Curriculum is used to coordinate efforts and to make sure jurisdictions are meeting certain thresholds. Conforming to what? Learning to think critically? Learning to read? To do arithmetic? Learning to use the inquiry method? Such horrible things to “conform” to.
Still coercion - do you like being coerced ? I don’t
How are my students, or my four children who attend school being coerced?
Strong words have implications
Coerce - to persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.
Is that what you think happens in schools?
Did they have a choice to go or not?
Of course.
In many countries homeschooling is outright banned and government forces children to go to school. For example, it is this way in Germany, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Greece, France, Finland, Spain, Belgium, Italy, Portugal and many others. In some of those places they literally take away your kids if you do not conform.
No coercion going on here… 😏
What about mandatory "Critical Race Theory" and "Sex Ed"? Do you think it is good that kids are required to learn that they somehow are oppressors or oppressed based on their skin color? Is it good that they are taught at an early about "gender identity" and that having gay sex is normal?
I have no idea what you’re fling about. I’ve never taught any of that in any school or classroom I’ve been in. Where I teach, nothing is “mandatory”.
Talking
I never said that you personally did. I just noticed that those are mandatory subjects in Canadian schools in response to you implying that nothing horrible is being taught to kids and mandatory curriculums are a good thing.
I can’t answer your question because I have no idea what those things are because I don’t teach them. I’ve seen them discussed in reference to some states in the US. They are not taught in the jurisdictions that I teach.
Interesting, you must not be teaching in Ontario then. https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-2/bill-67
Also, it seems that CRT is named differently in Canada, but the overall concept is still the same. Here is an article that explicitly talks about CRT being implemented in Canadian schools. https://slowtowrite.com/critical-race-theory-in-canadian-schools/
As for the Sex Ed, I am pretty sure it is being taught in all of the Canadian schools regardless of a province. Check this comparison out and keep in mind that it is from 2015. https://globalnews.ca/news/1847912/sexual-education-compared-across-canada/
I’m not. I’ll let you in on a little secret. Most teachers don’t care about “mandated” curriculum. It’s impossible to fit everything in and we are really good at weeding out the bullshit.
I doubt that teachers who specifically teach CRT and Sex Ed, somehow manage to leave everything from the curriculum out. Unless they manage to omit 100%, it is still incredibly harmful.
What’s wrong with sex ed?
I don't know, maybe teaching young kids that they can choose their gender and go mutilate their bodies in order to fit their new "gender identity"? Or showing them basically pornography and telling them (if not encouraging) that boys engaging in oral and anal sex with each other is completely normal? Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think it is completely inappropriate for strangers to talk about such things with kids under any circumstances.
When did they start teaching that? I’m out of the loop for many years now
🤷♂️
Weird that you as a teacher haven't heard about it. I get that you teach math, but you still supposedly should be more familiar with the school system than I am.
I would wager that I am. This is what I have been trying to say all night. Every classroom and every school and every school district is different. Every teacher is different.The curriculum is grey around the edges, and we tailor it to our students in the place we are teaching.
This has also been my observation from the limited time I was in classrooms as a district IT tech. Most teachers were passionate, and methods of teaching varied a lot.
You can pretend that this stuff is not being taught all you want, but it is a fact that these subjects are in the curriculum, the textbooks are actively being produced, bought and used in schools in many countries.
Differs from place to place, I can not tell you the exact year. It probably started in 2015 or even earlier and has been gaining major traction in many American and European countries since 2019.
Which schools? Because states have different curriculums.
Do you want me to name exact schools? I am afraid that is too much to ask. If you genuinely are interested in this subject I suggest you do your own research. You can also check out this article comparing Sex Ed curriculums in Canadian provinces. It is from 2015 and they already had gender identity included at that time. https://globalnews.ca/news/1847912/sexual-education-compared-across-canada/
Here are a couple examples of Sex Ed from UK and Switzerland.
Look, there is no denying that there are problems in our education system. There are bad teachers, there are bad curriculum designers, and there are bad schools/school districts. Unions protect bad teachers and most school districts are too top heavy, with more money being spent on administrators than in the classroom.
I entered this conversation because I don’t believe that they are “factories” producing “mindless” adults who can’t think for themselves and are being coerced to “conform” and that they are drillling out the curiosity of our children.
Homeschooling is a great option for many families, and many of my friends do it. I also know of many families who can’t, or don’t know how, to properly educate their children.
I
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Getting through is important below literacy level.
Where do you teach? In all of the schools that I am aware of students are only taught to remember someone else's ideas as if they are an ultimate truth by heart and are tasked to repeat them line by line.
Was wondering same thing - sounds like no school I’ve ever heard of and if it exists it’s amazing ❤️
Canada. I have taught in public schools, private schools, aboriginal schools and French immersion schools. Rote memorization is not the way we teach (for some thing yes, like memorizing multiplication tables)
What subject do you teach, if I may ask? In all of them except for maybe math or languages there is always some official narrative that is being pushed as an ultimate truth (even though often it is unsubstantiated). As in history, biology, economics.
Questions come naturally (hence the reference to curiosity)
You don’t need to incentivize it just like you don’t need inflation to incentivize consumption.
❤️
That may be so but you still need to introduce a way to discover questions. For example, as a kid I didn’t have much guidance from anyone and was not aware of things I could be curious about. Growing up in a poor household, neighborhood, town, you often have the scarcity mindset that doesn’t even allow you to dream. Some guidance is needed to introduce subjects to be curious about. For many that comes in a form of a parent but when the parent is financially insecure the kid needs other stimulation.
I hear what you’re saying, there definitely shouldn’t be a “one size fits all” approach to education. I think community plays a big part, I have helped homeschool a friends kids - she has dyslexia and dyscalculia. And even within that, we have another friend who comes over to help them explore making music (bc that’s not something I enjoy or am good at 🤦🏾♀️)
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I’d say that if a potential parent is financially insecure he shouldn’t start a family. Otherwise he won’t be able to raise a child properly and will inevitably outsource it. Which leads to kids being raised by the government in one way or another, and produces objectively dangerous dependent group thinkers which are a net negative for the humankind.
And when I say ”financially secure” I don’t mean that they need to be rich. They could just have a small farm and sustainably produce food for themselves, that would be more than enough.
“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.” —Mark Twain
Ime not too much 😂
What do you mean by kids teach themselves?
Then the level of education of the children depends on the cognitive/intellectual abilities of the parents
Not always true. If your kid went through developments delays they may never learn at the same level as the parent.
Maybe. But what about the children whose parents don't have the capacity? You assume your, no doubt, high level of education and your certainly above-average intellect.
It’s not a maybe it’s a fact. If a kid is neurologically is not 100% (whatever that implies), they won’t learn at the same level.
Not sure I understand the second part. Feels like we are on the same page about that.
The education a child receives depends on many often unfair conditions. Many children are not seen and perceived. If one puts the education now completely (parents should always have a considerable part in the education of their children) into the hands of the parents, then everything depends on these parents and their possibilities and interest. I think we are rather privileged here, so it may seem impossible that parents can not ensure the optimal education
If I understand what you’re saying - that not all parents are qualified to educate - then I 100% agree. Even if they didn’t force a curriculum, a curious kid would meet a dead end by approaching them.
I have taught in many communities where the parents were non existent or would abuse their children. For some, I was the first male they had met who didn’t hurt them. There are many problems with our education systems, but for these children my classroom was their only hope and the only safe place they knew.
It has an effect but if you leave children alone they are born with superpowers of learning but we destroy that with school
I am not saying that school as it exists is good, but it is also not as simple as presented here
Yes it’s nuanced but we can agree that school incentives mechanical learning and learning from an authority( teacher) plus schooling is coerced which breeds fear and fear is the enemy of learning
That might only be true for kids that are locked in a closet for their entire lives.
Not true
People learn from peers; education doesn’t happen in the classroom
I dunno, learned quite a bit in classrooms, and I was the lazy type 😂
seen vs unseen
same! not everything in the process of gaining knowledge should be a first hand experience – radiation as an pretty obvious example.
for centuries kids are enlightened by grownups – not only bc it’s the way to control if the knowledge corresponds with the reality and can be useful – but also because the relationship between teacher and student is built on authority. the last thing is rooted in nature of most highly developed animals – children often try to mimic what grownups do
I work for a foundation that does a lot of work in the banlieus. The children there are definitely forgotten by society and politics. But how should their parents, who sometimes can't even write, educate them?
I’d say this is the majority of adults. Even with good intentions they have no business facilitating learning of any kind. Sadly.
💯 and there are also teachers who shouldn’t be in the classroom either.
True
Every child is different, some can learn better and more at home, others need the school environment. My son is extremely intelligent and I could never offer him a better education than what he’s getting at his school. Different strokes for different folks.
That’s it. There is not one way
Exactly, and teachers don’t teach one way either.
I’m like how someone put it one time - maybe it was Balaji: schools are full of thousands of mediocre teachers; what you need is an amazing teacher in thousands of schools simultaneously. Paraphrasing.
Ooof hell of a question. Would love to talk more about what you do offline
Oh I’ve always wanted to know more about the banlieu’s. I worked in the same field and the states so it’s interesting, and depressing, to watch the same dynamics play out globally
my sister home tutors her boys, and has other home tutors who collaborate - I help with maths and science. Boys (twins, 10) are super smart. they have a lot of matured conversations on ideas and thought process, and yet often times are just kids loving their legos and basketball. On the same note, i grew up on the other side of town, literally the worst school in the country lol - parang (machete) fights, arson burning down the school canteen etc. We were in the first class but boy were we punished for skipping classes and playing pranks. I think i turned out half alright, and the boys I grew up with went on becoming lawyers, doctors, engineers and in all kind of awesome jobs. Unfortunately public education system has dwindled in my country and is below average and the international schools are more expensive than colleges.
Bitcoin Meetup Community Homeschool.
Make our own classrooms with our children.
Small groups, large values. 💡
Schooling undermines a childs natural desire to learn. Why on earth would you want to scale that?
How exactly does it undermine that?
I recommend this book, or anything by John Taylor Gatto.
Thanks
Have you read it? Any TLDR before I get it? Seeing as he is not a neutral figure and his assertions are from the 50s, I’m a bit more skeptical.
My wife has read the book and highly recommends it. Here is an excerpt from the author to give you a taste https://youtu.be/0tH_t5HDhHc
Thanks 😊
Yes, I have it and read it. Both John Holt and John Taylor Gatto were school teachers who questioned whether or not what they were doing was actually helping kids. Holt focused more on infants learning, Gatto focused more on government schooling. TLDR from the back of the book.
Watched an interview with Holt, unimpressed with his logic. He sounds compelling at times when speaking truths but then makes irrational connections between things he doesn’t understand. I can see why people would listen to him, he is impressionable, collected and says a lot of accurate things but sadly draws the wrong conclusions imo.
My overall take is that he is too aggressive in his stance and that parents should decide for themselves what to do - and if they don’t like traditional schooling that’s fine too.