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what makes a prpgressive bitcoiner unique or different than a bitcoiner, in your own words? using specific examples would help me understand why you say it, i still dont really understand..genuinely asking as someone who was a Bernie progressive in a life before bitcoin / anarchy.

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I am a progressive and a bitcoiner. I wouldn’t want to classify a new system per se.

So as a progressive, there probably are some things I may disagree with your traditional anarco-cap bitcoiner on. I belive in social safety net programs, taxing corporations more, more access to things like universal healthcare, some form of UBI, etc.

I believe in funding these things through more taxes on the wealthy, and less money wasted in gov bureaucracy and defense spending.

Unlike some progressives, I do think it’s imperative to cut down our deficit and including bitcoin in pensions as we, over a long enough time horizon, transition to a bitcoin standard. Bitcoin and USD will coexist for a very long time still as I see it. I am not trusting on the “good will” of wealthy and bitcoiners to take care of society. We need programs built in that actually have more stable funding (Bitcoin), less gov waste, and less tax cuts and bailouts for the wealthy. We can have these “progressive” goals while also cutting back the deficits and balancing the budget.

Again, this is in theory. But that’s where I stand as of now. For me it’s not a matter of watering down my values as a progressive or as a bitcoiner. And we also have to mix in more accountability in government that bitcoin doesn’t necessarily solve. We need term limits, campaign finance reform, and more direct democracy initiatives immediately. I am deeply concerned over “states rights” issues. For example, I don’t think a person should have to worry about which state they live in to be able to get an abortion.

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Discussion

Dan Wedge 1y ago

Anarco-commune is a good aim as we become self sovereign individuals. Imho

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I think those *voluntary* communities as they sprout up should have every right to exist and flourish

I am also a big belive in live and let live

“But Trey your approach to taxes!” Yeah, I’m talking about Elon musk and fucking major corporations who have had it far too easy the past 50+ years while everything else in our country crumbles to pieces.

Dan Wedge 1y ago

It wasn't capitalism that built the interstate system, it was the war machine. For those companies that have lived off the US taxpayer, it's time to start building back.

In Canada, I have watched any investment in the nation leave. We simply tax there's no invest, and the promise of a new life in Canada is a dream. Hopefully with progressive investment in the needed infrastructure the USA can keep it's business running. Otherwise tax avoidance will run rampant and you will experience the same drain on productivity.

hopefully free economic zones can help both our nations.

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I think too what’s tough is I’m describing systems that don’t yet exist and never have but what we should strive toward, at least in the US.

Open, democratic, term limits, balanced budgets, tax codes that work, programs that are effective as possible?

Dan Wedge 1y ago

The US is a very robust set of checks and balances. The institutions are still very strong. I do like our ability to run until you're voted out. The head of state 2-term policy is a strange one for me. Beyond that, I think you are on the right track.

The democratic institutions need to hold the elected officials more constitution, I think report cards would help. I still don't understand why we can't create projects that have a tax to pay for them that sunsets once the total, plus matainance is collected.

plebiANON 1y ago

This is just statism and coercion to spend other people’s money on things deemed “necessary” by central planners. This is why people are “triggered”. These are failed systems that lead to a misallocation of capital and, in many cases, a justification of historic terrors in the name of the greater good. This is simply postmodernism and stuff we need to be moving away from, not toward.

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I don’t understand the alternative in the real world in 2024.

And what about the piece where I said more checks and politicians and also having a balanced budget while doing this?

Because today’s political parties have forever political with unrelenting power, and have a blank check book. This would look a lot different with a balanced budget and terms limits

Trey Walsh 1y ago

Forever politicians*

plebiANON 1y ago

Many Bitcoiners, myself included, believe your line of thinking is based on a false premise that we need a government at all. Many of us believe that the emergent order will organize things on its own. Maybe that ends up in some sort of leadership hierarchy, aka a government. But that hierarchy should not have the ability to tax people without their consent. For me, that is a total no go. People should voluntarily fund what they want, and society should be birthed from that. Taking money from people involuntarily and spending it on things that are deemed “necessary” by a group of central planners is totally unacceptable. That is why there is a conflict with progressivism.

deleted 1y ago

ya this is a key point. even something like ' but i just want to tax Elon and his friends ' is a part of the problem. its simple 'but i want to use the immense power of the fed govt to do right' all over again. disenfranchising the central authorities, which is the point of btc if im not mistaken, means that you wouldnt be able to steal value from anyone, rich or poor. btc is truly revolutionary in its scope, equating it to modern US progressivism is like too small beans to bucket together. Pura vida, friend. i do enjoy your job, just consider changing the name 🙂

enjoy your pod*

Yes sir.

absolutely, friend.

Point is, these are terribly challenging things to think about and implement and take time and rich discussion, and breaking out of paradigms (while we are still in them!)

Cheers 🤙🏻

plebiANON 1y ago

I don’t think eliminating involuntary tribute is very challenging to think about. Again, this is why you are “triggering” Bitcoiners. There is just an incompatible ideology between progressivism and the implementation of a stateless money.

Appreciate the discussion though 🤙

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I’m just referring to basically a better and more enhanced gold standard without capture and government conterfitting.

Citizens would be more connected and holding govt accountable through taxation.

Without this, we go back to kingdoms reliant on the goodwill of the rich. I’m not crazy about that

plebiANON 1y ago

We are going to disagree on any justification for involuntary taxing. We don’t really know how things will emerge once a citizenry is freed from having to pay a central entity a portion of their earnings and wealth. If rich people want to horde their wealth, or direct it somewhere they prefer in a free market, that is their prerogative.

deleted 1y ago

its a same team discussion 🙂 i personally think you should let your liberal vibes come out in your interviews ( which they will, and thats good!) and just have a dif name. i woukd personally be just as confused if someone had ' the conservative bitcoiner' podcast.

Guy Swann 1y ago

"I believe in funding these things through more taxes on the wealthy, and less money wasted in gov bureaucracy and defense spending."

This is literally an oxymoron and where your entire viewpoint is a giant contradiction. You cannot increase the amount the govt steals and shrink the govt complexity and abuse at the same time. The former is literally the source of the latter.

But frens anyway and we can agree to disagree. ♥️ 🫂

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Tristan Brice Velloza Kildaire 1y ago

Actually got a question (all good faith 😊), would you consider a peak society one that does all transactions on Bitcoin or Monero or whatever.

Secondly, how would tax revenue be raised then (for said social programs)?

mark tyler 1y ago

Asking for revenue?

Tristan Brice Velloza Kildaire 1y ago

Translation: Forced

ermapop 1y ago

The society will be more like your government try to robe everything you have and you trying to keep and hide what you can... oh it's already here, Gold, Silver and Monero fix it (Bitcoin is transparent so you are fucked)

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I would say I see bitcoin as the medium of exchange when it transitions from solely store of value (as most people see it today) to medium of exchange where it holds purchasing power but doesn’t have the crazy early currency swings we see today.

And I would say we raise taxes the same way we do now, in various ways. That’s up for debate, but finding a balance of taxation that works and is most effective (is income tax and low wage workers effective? Nah I don’t think so. Sales and other taxes and wealthier individuals? Yeah probably. Plenty of room for discussion there). My first question is, ok raise taxes , but for what? For wars, corporate bailouts, and servicing our debt? Let’s get out of that death spiral.

Society needs to see government as its government, democracy, and reflection of it serving us, to then accept taxation. Otherwise, we have what we have today which is many people saying “what I’m I paying for exactly?”

Tristan Brice Velloza Kildaire 1y ago

I was thinking more about how to enforce that as a reality given the crytographic security advantages of this currency over, well, a bank that can be forcer by the governent to freeze a person's account, of whom hasnt been paying their taxes.

Effectively, how do you see this working is what i am more about asking

Trey Walsh 1y ago

Oh I see.

Well, it’ll be trickier for sure. But how do governments enforce this today? If you don’t pay, prison, property seizure, etc. bitcoin won’t remove that possibility where there are laws and states.

Btw, not saying that should happen or be an advocate for that! Just saying technically they would use laws and law enforcement to enforce, even if they couldn’t actually obtain your bitcoin.

Tristan Brice Velloza Kildaire 1y ago

Well, it is potentially easier to launder bitcoin and even easier to do huge transactions to circumvent normal payment techniques (of today, e.g. credit cards) with Monero.

My point or question rather is how you will account for the effective loss or large(r) degree of loss of the state's effective involvement in peoples' finanicla lives.

ede3d957... 1y ago

You say you are a progressive? Consent is one of the most important principles most progressives share. So if someone is acting against my consent he or she abuses my right to integrity.

Why should it be okay that a group of people is "legitimised" to act against my consent? How is that progressive? Don't you think it's criminal?

The solution will be outside the box. Not by retorting to old paradigms, old dialectic concepts.

We will need to grow our consciousness and be able to contain the whole spectrum within us.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

How do you enforce something if you don't know who they are, how much they sent, or who received it?

This is made even more difficult, if not impossible, with private crypto like Monero or any privacy layers that may come to Bitcoin. Ecash already does this (although it is custodial)

BoomTown 1y ago

You can “believe” whatever you want to “believe.” Bitcoin won’t care. Bitcoin is going to set societal constraints by pricing money appropriately. Forcing trade-offs and making us consider opportunity costs. Bitcoin is the non-negotiable.

The current band for “beliefs” that turn into actions will tighten considerably. Pragmatism will return.

For example, debates will be about adding an extra stop to local public transport system vs. allowing tax cuts for local businesses. One will happen, the other will not. And that conversation will ebb and flow from election to election.

But the days of arguing for trillions for foreign intervention (Ukraine) or trillions for UBI, healthcare, state sponsored retirement; tax breaks for churches or government sponsored gender transition surgeries…those days are gone with bitcoin enforcing opportunity costs.

Bitcoin requires trade-offs and rewards productive work (not simply activity).

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Anyone can use Bitcoin/Monero or any proper crypto because they are permissionless neutral tools, but from my perspective it doesn't really make sense strategically for political ideologies that don't place top emphasis on the individual. They lie on the far end of the spectrum for ultimate individual sovereignty. It is contrary to many progressive goals or adds a lot of friction to them.