But, but… this is censorship! Or if rusiaboy is doing that then its freespeech?

Its PII according to GDPR and many other laws in different jurisdictions. And of course its not only IP that a client send to random server - take at least some filters, default settings etc. if uncontrolled there may be clients who share you location by default using outbox model, is this private enough?

90% of modern internet security is “avoid visiting bad sites” and yet people fail it. And today you visit websites you consciously decided to visit while software prevents any attempts to automate it - https strict download, email magic pixels, CORS policies etc etc

If you want outbox model to be used by advanced users who did setup tor-only access for a device - well, it seems to me then it would be a struggle to male it worth it because 572 users relays could be memorized in mind :)

But if you want to have outbox model feature available for regular users, you have to start with tons of security considerations and configurations

I would never use a piece of software which may make arbitrary requests to arbitrary servers and I would discourage everyone to do it

Your IP to begin with

Unfortunately, I know completely different reality what happens after you enter US (legally, but that should be better I assume)

🤦🏻

So nobody afraid of their private data sent to arbitrary servers, right? I’m just a bit confused, yesterday it was called spying and malware and today its a boon for decentralization — hype cycles are so fickle, fascinating!

Your position is clear and in some way it is pretty justified — because you are a naive selfish guy who only thinks about today, and it should be totally fine to be this guy in a free democratic world :)

Thankfully, obviously, you are minority so humanity got a chance, because there are still non-democratic govts exist who don’t care about freedoms

Wish you all the best 🤞🏻

Are you kidding? When there is agreement, there is a clear enough. If you want it to sound easy, then according to Budapest memo “enough” is when Ukrainian sovereignty is restored at 1991 borders. Is this clear enough?

Thats actually your country (therefore YOU even if you don’t like it) — obligated to guarantee in terms of international laws. We ask MUCH less. You are dancing to give NOTHING.

If you want to be unreliable partner, say it directly first

>>> It’s [nostr] already won because it’s a protocol & not a platform owned my a greedy conglomerate.

Is this a good argument?

I could only summon my friend Occama to counter that

I don’t want to disappoint you with reality but nostr hasn’t won yet. And there are a lot of protocols created during last decades, many even more censorship-resistant, did they also win? If I create the same protocol as nostr but with all keywords capitalized or in spanish does it also win by default?

The problem with what you call censorship is complex because everyone views it in their personal way :) which is kinda incompatible with “global discourse”

And you also want moderation. Now you call it “mute and paid relays” and looking forward for “client algos” then you will call it “topical relays” or similar

There also will be people who will kinda get as close to “no moderation” as possible - by using only private/family relays (which is a moderation by social graph property under the hood)

So, moderation will always take place in something bigger than monologue. The question is how to take control over this moderation so it would match your needs as much as YOU want as possible instead of the platforms CEO AND keep room for global-or-similar discourse

Well, I can tell you then what technical problems exist — paid/good relays work today cause nobody actually takes nostr seriously and it exists like echo chamber. It all ends once there are a lot of ppl to attract businesses, scammers, SEO/SMM specialists etc

Client side algos won’t work. Algo by design needs a big corpus of documents that gets processed non-stop and requires biased development of both engineers and data scientists. So its a server side thing and your phone will never handle it so its actually a type of moderation. Hopefully, somehow it will be possible to chose “algos providers” but technically its EXTREMELY challenging

Moderation is a very complex topic and it can’t be solved solely technically (again, unless all you want is to communicate with friends and family). You can start overview the most basic problems of centralized social networks here https://www.techdirt.com/2022/11/02/hey-elon-let-me-help-you-speed-run-the-content-moderation-learning-curve/ which actually don’t go away anywhere just because we use standardized API format anyone can build for

Do you have any surface understanding of how this client level algo could be implemented? I am a developer and I don’t see anything possible to what you describe

If you mute people manually - then again you can only read a bunch of your friends, is this the experience you are looking for on nostr? Why wouldn’t you subscribe to some blogs/substacks instead?

Paid relays can’t handle spam/recommendations just by being paid. They have to “put some biased algo”

How would you do it? Is it a hopium or you have a clear vision? I don’t see any way of dealing with spam and similar without algos unless you want to only read a bunch of your close friends

Or are you saying you will implement and enforce your own algo?

So even if your entire feed is full of chiese/japanese you don’t know, low quality nsfw, shitcoin scams and ads - you like it more than moderated content?

I hope you keep in mind, what you see on nostr now (if you happen to like it) is completely not the same as you will see once nostr gets traction and multiple parties want to abuse it

Its just childish to believe no control works just because some part of control you have experienced hasn’t matched your expectations

All Budapest memo signers broke it in Feb 2014 and it hasn’t changed till today. In fact it became useless even though:

1) Ukraine didn’t break it

2) Ukraine didn’t receive back anything what it exchanged for it

If you want to argue about philosophical differences between “a promise”, “a guarantee” etc in a document signed decades ago by different generations - then dictatorships already won

If you don’t believe a random guy ok the internet - see how entire countries react to that kind of “promises” — Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia give Ukraine ALL they can because they understand they are at the biggest risk. Poland on the other hand stocks up weapon as mad and increases army reserves because it can afford it. Why do they do it? Because they love Ukraine and war? Or because they understand Article 5 has very high chances to become next Budapest memo?

So you don’t see any problem in your phone sending all your personal data to arbitrary servers?

Great! Working on something similar. The more the better. Hope to see more technical details :)