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Viktor Vsk
8a699686811889186df398c7253e8c4417ce73fe814edeae7ecd81dbde9536ac
Building #saltivka 🇺🇦 Nostr Friendly Relay (https://saltivka.org) Building #Knowstr — smart Nostr events aggregator (https://github.com/viktorvsk/knowstr) Working to enable people have more activities through the word of mouth between friends, friends of friends and more 🤝 with https://recar.io and https://valent.network

Less bombs, more responsibility to your own words and decisions — hello budapest memo 👋

Replying to 21823843...

nostr has no global source of truth, and that is a good thing

Out of interest, I follow the progress of a lot of other projects similar to nostr, and a couple links surfaced today:

BlueSky has a big "firehose" connection that streams all updates (new posts, reactions, etc) to subscribers. Unsurprisingly, this is difficult to process except on beefy servers with lots of bandwidth. So, one proposed solution is to strip out all that pesky cryptography (signatures, merkle tree data, etc): https://jazco.dev/2024/09/24/jetstream/

And over on Farcaster, keeping their hubs in sync is too difficult, so they want to make all posts globally sequenced, like a blockchain. The details are still being worked out, but I think it's safe to assume there will be a privileged global sequencer who decides on this ordering (and possibly which posts are included at all): https://github.com/farcasterxyz/protocol/discussions/193

In my opinion, both of these issues are symptoms of an underlying errant philosophy. These projects both want there to be a global source of truth: A single place you can go to guarantee you're seeing all the posts on a thread, from a particular user, etc. On BlueSky that is https://bluesky.app and on Farcaster that is https://warpcast.com .

Advocates of each of these projects of course would dispute this, pointing out that you could always self-host, or somehow avoid depending on their semi-official infrastructure, but the truth is that if you're not on bluesky.app or warpcast.com, you don't exist, and nobody cares that you don't exist.

nostr has eschewed the concept of global source of truth. You can't necessarily be sure you are seeing everything. Conversations may sometimes get fragmented, posts may disappear, and there may be the occasional bout of confusion and chaos. There is no official or semi-official nostr website, app, or relay, and this is a good thing. It means we are actually building a decentralised protocol, not just acting out decentralisation theatre, or pretending we'll get there eventually and that the ends justify the means.

Back when computers were primitive and professional data-centres didn't exist, it was impossible to build mega-apps like Twitter. Protocols had to be decentralised by default -- there was simply no other way. We can learn a lot by looking back to protocols of yesteryear, like Usenet and IRC, and still-popular protocols like email and HTTP. None of these assume global sources of truth, and they are stronger and better for it, as is nostr.

> Advocates of each of these projects of course would dispute this, pointing out that you could always self-host, or somehow avoid depending on their semi-official infrastructure, but the truth is that if you're not on bluesky.app or warpcast.com, you don't exist, and nobody cares that you don't exist.

Aren’t nostr adepts of mythical outbox who consider anything server side to be an evil centralization from “them” saying the same things? “No one guarantees relays keep your posts but you can always selfhost and no one will care about you and this is a good thing because Nostr is a pure signal and we don’t need stupid normies here!”

I’m not very interested in your content because for me its 100% obvious what you are saying (I totally agree with you), I also don’t like posts usually because it makes no sense on nostr right now and no one wants it fixed

However I must admit seeing content like yours is very inspiring — its a breath among bitcoin/nostr/politics that gives hope this place could be used for regular social network activities

Self hosted client side and p2p federation sound like you really now the thing!

Bitcoin fixes physical world in general and governments in particular

Outbox fixes virtual world in general and spam in particular

Nostr and bitcoin are protocols so they already won and we don’t have to do nothing

🍾🎉🍾

More evil than rusian terrorists committing genocides all over the world for decades and their people praising and sponsoring this?

Replying to Avatar Leo Wandersleb

I like the proposed nip76!

While nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z has some medical data in mind, what I see this enable is to share kind-1 posts with groups, only! Those 12 I awarded a batch for example. Or all my 2000 follows.

The assumption of privacy would be low - any of the group could leak the event to a relay that doesn't care about nip76 but it's akin to facebook groups providing privacy. The bigger the group, the more likely somebody leaks stuff but with the bloom filter tag you can extremely efficiently limit access to any set of pubkeys.

But just how efficient are these Bloom filters here? Extremely efficient! To limit access to just a single pubkey, assuming you spend as many bytes as it would take to write the pubkey out, you get a false positive rate of at most one in 319784383802483100000000000000000000000000.

But how about groups of 12 or 2000?

12 pubkeys can be specified with a FPR of 1E-9 with 66B of data or 1E-17 with 118B.

2000 pubkeys can be specified with a FPR of 1E-9 with 12kB of data or 1E-17 with 20kB.

In both examples we need 6 or 10 bytes per pubkey respectively, compared to 32B which these pubkeys actually weigh.

https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1497

Smells like premature optimization

Haha did you actually develop any software at least once?

How does one achieve this primary goal? Why would relay operators be willing to receiev, store, transfer and respond with user data?

Since right now its based on pure enthusiams and facts that operating a relay costs pennies and has almost no overhead and completely no legal consequences

I was thinking on doing something similar but after initial investigation of fine tuming mechanics and consulting with great AI scientists and ML engs I came to the conclusion it won’t work nearly as good as I imagined and I didnt even start

Would be extremely interesting to see at least a prototype 👍

Since the number of relay operators became equal 1 and the operator decided it doesn’t make sense to do so