Bitcoin: Transparent, Immutable, Scarce, SoV
Monero: Private, Adaptive, Fungible, MoE
One thing I still don't get: Why do I need a channel in Lightning, when I run my own node? This seems kinda odd.
Reading this, btw: https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/overview
Lightning is a rube goldberg machine in my opinion...more hassle than it's worth for little benefit. Worse security trade-off than on chain and ends up being much less elegant and more complex UX if used in any sovereign manner.
Hoping for better L2s to succeed. Maybe something like ZK roll-ups, RGB, Drivechains, or Enigma.
https://app.sigle.io/polydeuces.id.stx/bo-iHio5_4iTlvWwXwZ9l
Depends where you live, but no not many atm, here is an online directory though https://monerica.com/
You still have to fund the mint with on chain/LN and settle with LN between mints. What are you going to do only transact with yourself within your own mint?
And unless you obscure those deposited and moving funds with KYC-free/CJing, you're not anonymous or private. But at that point chaumian ecash would be redundant and you lose most/all benefits (convenience/privacy).
That defeats the entire point of ecash: convenience and privacy.
How are you going to hide if everyone is using their own mints?
Agree. Particularly when zapping using WoS... Sending custodial closed source micro payments on an open permissionless network 🤪
Do you mean Nostr?
Yes, UX is so important for new users. Users shouldn't have to worry about jumping thru all these hoops just to simply use money privately. Money should be fungible and as easy as possible to use. Too much friction and the average user won't use it privately. It has to be default and taken care of on the protocol level.
Exactly, hop on Bisq, Robosats, or Peach and purchase BTC + make every spend a CJ. Bisq also has Monero swaps.
You can atomic swap to Monero or use an aggregator like Trocador. Open source, no javascript + tor and i2p links available.
Or you can buy Monero directly with LocalMonero. Open source, Open source, no javascript + tor and i2p links available as well. If you make an offer you can get Monero at market price or even below market pretty often and fairly quickly.
Big directory to buy just about anything with Monero https://monerica.com/
You can even buy giftcards at point of sale with Monero to cover the gap. https://coincards.com/us/
I'm not arguing there is a specific threshold for good anon set. I think both anon sets are pretty good. All Im bringing into question is ShiShi's sure claim that Bitcoin anon set is necessarily higher than Monero when considering the facts.
The implication is all or a massive portion of Bitcoin is his anon set (a frequent claim from bitcoin maxis). You *can't* count KYC'd Bitcoin because their identities are known! The VAST majority of bitcoin is KYC'd and traceable to individual users or institutions! Also custodially kept on the CEXes themselves!
Thought expirement. Consider the following:
Crypto A:
-default transparency
-easy access from all KYC CEXes
-institutional adoption
-most well known to new inexperienced crypto users
Crypto B:
-default privacy
-delisted from most CEXes, rampant P2P KYC-free culture
-institutional taboo
-mostly on the radar of privacy minded communities and crypto vets
Based on this alone, which one would you wager has a bigger anonset?
You can achieve decent privacy/anonymity on Bitcoin if you buy non-KYC and CJ... It is just such an uphill battle and pain to do and maintain in convenience, knowledge, expense, and inferior(privacytech-wise). I've been thru the Bitcoin privacy MoE road for a long time and really don't care for doing it anymore.
I just think it makes sense to use tools for their purpose. And Bitcoin qualities make it an inferior L1 MoE (especially in the future) for many reasons, but excels as a great permissionless SoV.
Anyone can do whatever they want obviously.
I believe you can, but Phoenix already has tor already built in. You have to toggle it on.
Zeus is probably the best out of them all, in a self-sovereign sense, but you need to know how to run and connect to your own node, so it isn't beginner friendly
You really think any significant portion of BTC is KYC-free? Most buying and trading is on CEXes and institutional. I have to twist most Bitcoiners arms to take KYC seriously aside from a niche few.
Recent examples. Just read the replies. It's embarrassing:
https://twitter.com/MoheganBTC/status/1672076125659332611?s=20
https://twitter.com/HodlMagoo/status/1674811518318264324?s=20
Ok? You can acquire Monero that isn't tied to your identity just as easily. AND it is the norm because most Monero users are privacy conscious to begin with. AND Monero is delisted from most CEXes. AND no extra CJ step necessary when withdrawing even for the few that buy KYC.
"Spending it directly is unlikely" Lmao, many places to spend directly you obviously have never looked because you don't use it. I get many banal everyday items all the time with Monero. Maple syrup, coffee, steaks, ammo, books, the list goes on. Here you go! https://monerica.com/
ATMs have cameras and often KYC, ya dingus, and why are you trading your Bitcoin for fiat if it is such a great MoE?
On Twitter TDevD tweets Whirlpool capacity every so often. 18 hours ago he posted 8,242 BTC if you believe him. But not sure why he would lie about the capacity being less. If anything he would lie about it being more. And that is assuming most people run their own Dojo:
https://twitter.com/SamouraiDev/status/1676206203330867203?s=20
Says it's triple or quadruple that if you include Join Market and Wasabi. Join Market is probably the least beginner friendly, so assuming it is used the least.
https://mempool.space/lightning
If you consider ~80-90% of lightning is used custodially, you can probably rule out a lot of the above link.
You can even overshoot my estimation to be generous. Like I said it's rough indication, but can't be far off.
Maybe I'm wrong. Let me know if you can find stats for Join Market and Wasabi. Would be great to know for sure whether it is more or less.
On Twitter TDevD tweets Whirlpool capacity every so often. 18 hours ago he posted 8,242 BTC if you believe him. But not sure why he would lie about the capacity being less. If anything he would lie about it being more. And that is assuming most people run their own Dojo:
https://twitter.com/SamouraiDev/status/1676206203330867203?s=20
Says it's triple or quadruple that if you include Join Market and Wasabi. Join Market is probably the least beginner friendly, so assuming it is used the least.
https://mempool.space/lightning
If you consider ~80-90% of lightning is used custodially, you can probably rule out a lot of the above link.
You can even overshoot my estimation to be generous. Like I said it's rough indication, but can't be far off.
Yes, I think Phoenix is great leap in making the UX of Lightning better and actually non custodial for casual users. Probably the only one I would use along with Breez. But it still isn't very private and not as trustless as L1 Bitcoin.
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#is-phoenix-trustless
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix
On Twitter TDevD tweets Whirlpool capacity every so often. 18 hours ago he posted 8,242 BTC if you believe him. But not sure why he would lie about the capacity being less. If anything he would lie about it being more. And that is assuming most people run their own Dojo:
https://twitter.com/SamouraiDev/status/1676206203330867203?s=20
Says it's triple or quadruple that if you include Join Market and Wasabi. Join Market is probably the least beginner friendly, so assuming it is used the least.
https://mempool.space/lightning
If you consider ~80-90% of lightning is used custodially, you can probably rule out a lot of the above link.
You can even overshoot my estimation to be generous. Like I said it's rough indication, but can't be far off.
Rough estimate. If you take the capacity of the three major coinjoin protocols and LN and compare them to Monero market cap it is something like ~15%.
Not to mention willing to wager there is more KYC Bitcoin because practically every CEX has it, while Monero is largely delisted aside from a few options.
Yes, Cashu/Fedimint is an improvement on custodial, but it is still custodial. Imo that is against a major pillar of Bitcoin to begin with.
Yes, I think Phoenix is great leap in making the UX of Lightning better and actually non custodial for casual users. Probably the only one I would use along with Breez. But it still isn't very private and not as trustless as L1 Bitcoin.
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#is-phoenix-trustless
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix
Why isn't any of what I said true?
Please don't say Lightning. Many different tradeoffs than Bitcoin L1, and ~90% custodial txs because the the sovereign UX is so terrible for average users.
Because bitcoin sucks as a MoE or digital cash analogue. High tx fees (will be much higher in future), non fungible or at least less fungible (depending on your view), and not as private. The more users and the more frequently you use Bitcoin the poorer you get.
Bitcoin anon set is only as big as those buying non-KYC and CJing. A tiny fraction of Bitcoin users. Much smaller anon set than Monero.
Bitcoin is a better SoV.