Once make being a flop doesn't offset an entire industry. The writing is on the wall. Gasoline powered vehicles won't be produced at all, probably in my lifetime or much sooner.
Discussion
Highly doubt it
We don't see many horses pulling carriages any longer. It's just the way humans and technology works. Sorry.
I’m sorry but in which way, shape or form are electric vehicles superior to ice vehicles?
Are they greener? No, they pollute as much as 7x! Compared to a reg vehicle
More efficient? No, that battery costs a fortune to swap out after 7 or years
Where is the precious electricity coming from? Coal mines lol
Who’s mining all the lithium? Slave labor in the Congo
nostr:npub10chlkc62tk7yr5m9qjc2u7rs3ufhhrq8yukeey0c5lysqkp2gumq93mnex
Love Derek but a bad take. Dumb. Electric is going backwards not forward.
Yeah EVs are a subsidized hot mess with great green washed marketing.
Not to mention they are all spying on you and can be turned off remotely. Talk about being cocked
It’s just retarded that people think EV’s are foreword progress.
They aren’t.
What are your thoughts on hybrids?
The longevity/durability of the newer engines coming out is unproven of course, but I’m highly optimistic. Get great power, torque, and range.
Toyota is doing it right. Stay away from plug-in hybrids…
My next car will be a gas guzzler just to make right in society 😛😛😛
I have a friend who’s a fan of the Prius, thinks it’s humble. The new one is all-electric tho. 🤔
I was wrong. 
The new Prius is a good looking, solid car
I'm 100% with you on this. First time I've thought that about a Prius
Ikr, Prius Prime actually looks pretty slick.
Never though I’d say that about a Prius.
Can confirm. 
Hybrid? Why do you have to change a hybrid?
My 2 sats
Larger battery allows for greater electric only usage.
I don't see hybrids in the shop. They don't need brakes, 2 power sources half usage on either mill
I have seen 1 (hybrid) battery go on a 14yr old hybrid, guess what, the engine still ran the vehicle great.
Electric vehicles are great, way more flexible with power sources and incredible technology.. Electric turbine style motors are way more efficient, regenerative breaks, etc. Especially for local commuting. Think modern golf cart and smart phone technology, it’s next gen. Gas only you have OPEC and smog.
You have to own an electric car to know, we’ll never go back, and most will never go back.. Done with Tesla, but there are a ton of competitive options now, most manufactures have electric options from $39k up.
*Problem is, they are tied to electric subsides and clean credits and manipulation involving the environment, government funding, etc. That doesn’t mean ‘electric cars are bad’. Like saying guns are bad because they are used to kill people..
The new 2024 Land Cruiser is sick, and I love the idea of hybrid, and Toyota does it well by now. Ford had a nice hybrid also.
Having solar is being power sovereign. Imaging powering your car and house 100% while never touching the power grid or going to a gas station.
*There are narratives on both sides, and the anti solar/anti electric car narrative is just to counter the politics of the left, but the technology is not only innovatlble, it is pretty awesome.
I owned a Nissan Leaf. While it was very ugly, it was a great experience. The torque was amazing and very efficient.
Unfortunately I now live in a setup where I don’t have access to a charger at night. I would never go back to an ICUs if it wasn’t for this.
I had a leave also years ago. Each sucked, but for local commutes, ideal.
Hybrid is the future. Pure electric is trash.
My current hybrid model is an all electric for local stuff, and an 8 cylinder for 2nd car/ and snow-mountains.
Our next car will be an actual hybrid so will have a better opinion at this time, but from what I’ve read, hybrid is growing and all electric is cooling..
what you don't see is the massive graveyards of second hand that can't be sold
or the occasional but catastrophic battery fires
i agree that in principle eliminating the oil burning at the site of use for urban commuting makes sense but don't pretend it's more efficient
For the graveyards of cars, I just read some recent articles on it, seems there are a many. My guess is this is a printing fiat problem over the last few years combined with slowing electric car sales, overzealous expectations, and other macroeconomic factors not necessarily directly related to the value of an electric car. I had no problem selling our two different second had electric cars in 2018 and 2022, different markets.
Regarding fires, it is as rare or less than gas car fires. I think that is a non-issue especially compared to the history of gas cars burning people to death.
Electric motors are more efficient, electricity is more efficient and flexible (or you would be running you iPhone with gas), we’ve been using batteries for decades, personal use is way more efficient in my families experience, but obviously using gas to power a generator for electricity or not properly recycling batteries is not.. So depends I guess.
Even IF today electric cars are less efficient (I don’t believe this is true) but if it was, in 5-15 years of technical advancement they WILL be light years more efficient. We would be paying for the R&D now to massively benefit the world later. Pretty sure horses were more efficient than the first gas cars.
Again, imagine powering 100% of your house electricity and automobile fuel with solar from your rooftop, for 20+ years. I’m doing that today (and mining Bitcoin with any left over). Talk about sovereign, I haven’t seen a gas station or electric bill in years.
i'd not be running an iphone with gas but the only reason is that solid state fuel cells require expensive metals as catalysts and that's just never been solved
now, there's a type of electric i would get behind: methanol fuel cells
also, if you don't realise that converting hydrocarbons to electricity far from the site of use is inefficient you clearly have no grasp of either electricity or physics
- copper conductors have resistance that eats the energy
- the transformers eat the energy and turn it into heat more visibly that you need big heatsinks for them
- you need transformers every few kilometers of cable run
- battery chargers generate waste heat energy because they have to convert the AC power which is able to send electricity across distances at the cost of requiring step-up transformers to DC
- the actual charging process has another power system in it that also wastes power in the form of heat
- the battery itself heats up and this heat is wasted energy
if you understand some basic economics of compounding percentages those losses have to be under 10% (highly unlikely, more like 12-15% but let's just entertain 10% at each hop) - for 10% that's 0.9^6 or 53% of the energy by the time you apply force to the road, and there again also hides another 5% or so energy loss that is present in any vehicle
the direct burning of the hydrocarbon fuel inside the engine gets you more like about 15% net loss via heat and friction, which is effectively 1/3 of the losses from the electricity
and let's not go into these "renewable" solar cells that require ovens sitting at very high temperatures slowly cooling for a week or more to grow decent sized PV silicon cells, or the amount of heat and cooling required to manufacture high tensile wind turbine parts
the energy cost of producing both of these devices is about 2/3 returned in the energy produced over the operational lifetime of the devices
only people without understanding of the issue of energy conversion and transmission efficiencies buy this hogwash about sustainable and green
it's not sustainable because it's far less efficient
the only thing that the electric car does is reduce pollution where we live, where the electric increases pollution somewhere else
stupid humans can't think past one order effects of their actions
👆🏼
imo much like with bitcoin mining I’m cool with however people want to use electricity as long as they pay for it. No beef with people that have EVs, I just don’t want to subsidize the car manufacturers and charging infrastructure with my tax dollars. Same goes to anything else that gets subsidies. If it can’t survive in the free market then it clearly should not exist. Let the markets speak.
Perfectly stated.
Agree.
The biggest problem is the Left is using ‘green energy’ and ‘climate change’ as an excuse to subsidize and tax, etc. that’s different, but doesn’t make the technology bad.
Also agree that there is a LOT of pollution that goes on we don’t see. But in the same not, there is pollution on everything produced to extents you don’t see.
I don’t agree on solar cells, that technology has been evolving for over 30 years and is getting incredible. I have solar, and will not need to pay for gas or electricity for the next 20+ years. Talk about sovereign
Electric car sales are cooling, but have been on a tear for the last 10 years..
I agree, let the free market speak. Maybe hybrid cars take a bigger position, but all electric will be here from now on.
They are cooling because the tax breaks are disappearing that caused the “explosive growth” over the last 8-10 years. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
That’s part of it but not everything. Most people who owned an electric car will never go back.
they will when the price of lithium isn't subsidised anymore
Such a simple thing to find in the earth, Lithium. Simple. And clean. 🤦🏻♂️
Most of the lithium and battery minerals mined are for the billions of smart phones and laptop batteries we are using right now.
Where is the outrage??.. 🤦🏼
That too. Fix that as well. I was a slave laborer in one of those mines years ago. Met some good people. Half died in the first 6 months and were only 9 years old but still, nice kids. We had this one kid, Mongo. Forehead you could play a movie off of but he was a good shit so we didn’t bust his balls. The kids licked the dirt off their sandals for food, it’s actually wasn’t bad. I tried it.
😬🤣
Sorry, had to do it, we are a meme culture after all 🤣🤣 
not sure i get it... mobile phones spy on us, closed source firmwares, unable to run other OS on it, about the only bright spot in it is that google at least doesn't stop you installing APKs how you like
the electric bicycle, on the other hand, is actually an efficient use of the batteries for the vehicle net weight weight to cargo ratio and the fact that it's not so heavy you can't get to your destination even if it runs out of charge part way
Billions of smart phones sold. You are probably using one right now. We all are. There is absolutely no ‘battery outrage’ for smart phones.
I really want an electric bike, not sure if it will make me more lazy or bike more…
lol, no, i don't use nostr on my phone, and my phone sits idle except when my landlady uses it to message me on whatsapp and there's no whatsapp on pc
i barely even carry it with me anywhere, i sometimes take it to doomscroll zerohedge while i drink some stout at the bar up the street
i never give out my phone number unless people require it to contact me, email is my preferred method of contact for normies, and if they aren't normies, i'll give them my simplex or session or nostr
you got me wondering now, can i use whatsapp on my pc without having my phone online, i was pretty sure last time i checked that to use whatsapp on pc i have to have my phone on and connected
i liked it better in bulgaria where the popular non-GSM connection method was viber which doesn't have this retarded zuck protocol shit restriction i'll take rakuten over meta any day
Admirable and rare, but you still have one.
so, what is your argument then? that because i'm forced to have one that it's good? or something?
sounds like an argument against it and why i hate it so much actually.
fucking judas machine
I’m saying that nobody complains about cell phone batteries, even though they make up the majority of the lithium mined.
Governments aren’t pushing lithium battery smartphones over gas powered smartphones. If you want a smartphone, lithium batteries are pretty much the only option. There will likely be a better battery in the next 7-10 years.
People point out the environmental impact of EV lithium batteries because of the hypocritical spin. EVs are trumpeted as being great for the environment. But don’t pay any attention to the lithium mines, petroleum power driving the electric grid, relatively short battery lifespan, high cost of replacing batteries, and high cost of battery disposal. None of those deficiencies even touch on the centralized control over electricity distribution.
Those warts are real. People that point them out are derided even if they love EVs. Maybe they also love honest and open discussions.
nostr:npub1e2wl43nfgraz603hd0xx0f89lveyjxz7xawctyst0p65fmh65j4s3cnpuv tried to zap your note and it keeps failing. Something on your end most likely. Fyi. Tried twice.
So do you not like electric cars because the government pushes it, or because the batteries? If gov, that’s a different meme lol
Of course people have a choice. They can protest phone batteries and get a landline and computer.
Obama literally gave away millions of free smart phones back in the day.
That’s your opinion, not necessarily true. Just from personal experience, last electric car we bought did not get the gov discount.
I’ve sold two used electric cars no problem.
My far right friend in Florida recently bought a used Tesla and loves it. There is a market.
There’s definitely a market. As long as it’s not forced then go for it. That’s not what’s happening though. Open wide, EV’s coming.
EV’s are like Omar in The Wire. “EV’s comin, EV’s coming. Watch your pockets”.
Agree the market is heavily manipulated with subsides and printed money, but there is a market. We will find the true market and value when subside dry up, but it’s there.
To be fair, a ton of vocal supporters ran out and bought them. Subsidies helped yes, but those fanbois would have bought anyway. Lpwest hanging fruit. Now that all the ev simps own one, sales will represent the true adoption rate - which is much much slower than that first wave.
Bingo.
having lived with lithium battery bearing electric scooters i can confirm that the weight to power ratio of lithium ion batteries leaves something to be desired
my scooter would charge for 3-4 hours at 36V and would give me about 10-15km range
part of the reason why it has such a wide variance is because the amount of energy required depends entirely on the traction of the wheels (which can vary on different surfaces, as well as rolling resistance and rotational inertia, ie wheel weight) and the average of the slope of the path and the variance of the cargo weight (people tend to vary in weight during a day up to 3kg up and down depending on hydration and food intake and so on)
my scooter was limited to 350W of torque and this was often not enough for some slopes, also, and the dynamic range possible in an internal combustion engine is much wider, gasoline is the best for width, diesel has more KW but less torque, and two stroke gasoline has a narrow band of optimal torque
torque is how steep the slope is and KW is how tall the slope can get, and in internal combustion engines this is a distribution curve across the rev range and can be tweaked with turbos, superchargers and other combustion modifiers
all in all, the engineering reality is that the best all round vehicle would be a turbo diesel hybrid, with a fairly precisely picked balance of battery weight, chassis weight, wheel weight, type of tyre, wheel diameter, and of course aerodynamics
this would give you the widest power range with the sharpest torque response and the longest overall distance per overhead weight
this is why it's retarded to say EV is better, because EV is better for some workloads, and diesel is better for others, and two stroke still others, then there is gasoline, and nitrous, and methanol
simple answers make simple minds happy, sorry not sorry
Coming to the topic of “carbon emissions” do you know how Europe is getting a chunk of their energy?
By cutting down forest in America and shipping it to plants to get burnt… mkay
Does that make any sense? We live in an upside down world
There are many ways to make electricity, and many aren’t very efficient/clean/environmentally friendly, but can’t blame an industry for stupid use.
Yes, and we pay the Middle East $billions for oil that they use to buy stuff to kill us. ass backwards, agree.
Exactly it’s all backwards. Bring on the mini nuclear power plants for abundant and clean energy production
Big supporter of nuclear. Electricity IS the way to go, just getting there may take some time…
Yes on#1. Maybe to NO on #2.
Imagine what we can do with plentiful and abundant energy. Just like our forefathers did one day
We are all stupid humans. Solar and nuclear are excellent sources of cleans and abundant energy, but without proper evolution of the technology, it can be very dirty also..
Solar farms are junk. Look terrible, kill animals needlessly & are just fucking stupid.
Nuclear = clean, efficient, small footprint.
Solar on my roof rocks though.. Most sovereign thing one can do.
good for backup and remote locations for sure
but diesel generators are pretty reliable, the design of the engine is perfect for a relatively constant load and they scale down better than steam powered
Not just for backup. I haven’t been to a gas station or paid an electric bill in years and my cells are still like new. Of course this doesn’t work in Portland 🤣
I have an ice generator also in case, loud and stinky, but yes effective for emergencies.
Pro tip: Install cells yourself for a fraction of the price.
YES 
Technology is always improving and advancing. We're not going to have self driving AI powered cars of the future that need to oil and gas for fuel. It just isn't going to happen. Maybe they'll be nuclear powered? Who knows which fuel will replace oil and gas, but it's going to happen. It's already trending upwards and as tech moves forward, that gap will continue to grow.
Come on they don't pollute more and the grid is getting more efficient and greener, not because of climate insanity, but just because it's cheaper.
And just to put in perspective i agree the extraction of lithium is a huge problem but the reserves ain't in congo.
Chile has the largest lithium reserves worldwide by a large margin. Australia comes in second, with reserves estimated at 6.2 million metric tons in 2022.
And at top of that this is like the first generation of eletrical vehicle updates will come
Let’s just agree to completely fucking disagree. How’s that?
Ok but just to be clear you are here in my notes expanding the conversation, if you're done be my guest
Well well well. My notes. I’m sorry your majesty.
I’ll let you know when I’m done.
Ok, now I’m done.
Sorry if it sounded the wrong way, wasn't my intention, but you don't need to get angry with a argument, obviously you're a pleb that have something to say I'm open for it
FYI, ‘Electric cars pollute 7x more and the batteries need to be replaced in 7 years’ is completely false and part of the Right’s narrative.. I’m guessing neither you nor Sats have ever owned a fully electric car.
What is better?
1- Electric motors are far superior to gas in efficiency
2- Electricity is way more flexible, there are 10+ was to produce it including solar on your rooftop. (Not just coal) you an OPEC fan? Do you know one where your OPEC support is going?
3- Speed will blow away any comparable gas car
4- Electricity is cheaper than gas, even if from the ‘coal’ grid
Don’t forget there are narratives from both sides.
Electric planes & cargo shipping boats?
Let me just add that there is not such a thing as clean energy. That’s double speak word to confuse us all.
We have abundant energy power in water itself but the powers that be don’t let it happen
There is absolutely ‘cleaner’ energy.
Electricity from a dam turbine is a lot ‘cleaner’ than electricity from coal burning.
Efficiency not cleaner
Gas planes use tons of gas, and drone technology is getting good.. But those are a ways out.
Electric ships, nuclear subs?
EV’s are skinny jeans wearing millennials with no kids. Real world requires gas and oil. Always will.
This is a Volvo study not a political one:
When also including the Li-ion battery modules and Volvo manufacturing, the GHG emissions are nearly 70 per cent higher for the C40 Recharge compared with XC40 ICE.
There’s also an argument for removing or perhaps a better term “relocating” the exhaust fumes (and let’s admit it, those are not great to breathe in), away from street level and out of built-up areas. Oils for lubricating an ICE are also not required. I remain on the fence though. There’s still a massive debate about what to do with the sheer number of batteries that are end of life too. Like nostr, it’s still early days but agree with one thing; I’d like to see more “pure” EVs with minimal tech.
I totally agree with you. Let the consumer figure it out not a mandate by the state
We got many other options for propulsion out there that make much more sense and are more logical than EVSs
I am hoping all of us can meet at the next nostr event to discuss in person over a beer 🍻 Text can turn to misunderstanding and conflict pretty fast :)
Instant torque my dear fren. Instant. And plenty of it. Acceleration is more needed on the road than speed, we rarely drive past 80mph.
Also superior power control to the wheel.
It’s like riding a jet on wheels.
Who cares about all the other things.
lol if that’s your thing, go for it
Beware of the radiation emitted
i think the lithium batteries are good for small vehicles but full size sedans and larger is retarded, every kilogram extra battery delivers less and less range
the whole thing is a racket being promoted by people who own battery factories and slave mines in the congo defended by CIA militias, cos they know the ship is sinking.
But the biggest reserve of lithium is in Chile followed by Australia, why would they explore Congo?
Congo black. That’s why.
Slave labor 🤫🤫🤫🤫
The major lithium reserves are found in several countries around the world. According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the identified lithium resources are distributed as follows: Bolivia has 21 million tons, Argentina has 20 million tons, Chile has 11 million tons, Australia has 7.9 million tons, China has 6.8 million tons, Germany has 3.2 million tons, Congo (Kinshasa) has 3 million tons, Canada has 2.9 million tons, Mexico has 1.7 million tons, and Czechia has 1.3 million tons[1]. Other sources also confirm that Chile, Australia, and Argentina are among the top countries with the largest lithium reserves[2][3]. Additionally, some countries in Europe, such as Portugal, Germany, Austria, Czechia, Finland, Serbia, and Spain, have proven lithium reserves[4]. Globally, lithium is extracted from two key sources: brines and minerals. Currently, lithium-bearing minerals are chiefly extracted from pegmatites in Australia, Zimbabwe, and Brazil, while extraction from brines predominantly occurs in countries such as Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia[5].
Citations:
[1] https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2023/mcs2023-lithium.pdf
[2] https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/six-largest-lithium-reserves-world/
[3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/268790/countries-with-the-largest-lithium-reserves-worldwide/
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Floor an electric car once, you will never drive an ICE ever again.
If you want to haul big shit, you need torque.
Electric trucks much superior than ICE. And you also get the benefit of a lot of electric outlets at the back for all the tools you need.
The only real downside is range.
Idk, anyone that can afford a decent V8 let alone any sports car is not trading the sound of a Lexus LFA for a soulless model S plaid. EV’s are a one trick pony, even if it is one hell of trick.
They have their place. More options are always better.
Bad take. Internal combustion engines are one of the most amazing inventions in mankind. That’s a fact.
Go wait in your 9 hour line to get a 10% charge on your Tesla to go 20 more miles. Fun fun.
Humans select superior energy technologies. Electric vehicles represent an inferior energy technology being promoted by government subsidies.
Ask why governments want electric vehicles to proliferate…think through the lens of Sovereign Individual.
I totally agree that using ppl resources thru subsidies is wrong, with that said why do you think it's inferior energy tech?
Energy density is king. And energy losses are a killer.
Every translation of energy loses efficiency.
ICE >> combusted gasoline into motion (heat loss)
EV >> electricity generated (loss) >> transmitted into line (loss) >> into battery (loss) >> out of battery (loss) >> into motion (loss)
People are think that superior technology always wins. It doesn't. The market wants what the market wants. i.e. BetaMax
In fairness I don’t know if it’s just a logical progress to full electric. What seems to make gasoline powered vehicles attractive is the energy density, even with the inefficiencies of an ICE.
Trust me I used to be a EV maxi and I think battery tech needs to match and exceed hydrocarbon density for it to be market practical (meaning outside of X state banning ICE by 2035 bs).
I also have concerns about charging logistics that probably need to change as well as the cobalt mining practices that seem to hide the pollution and issues in sourcing these.
I could be wrong and even dated on some of these points.
Maybe EVs become the vehicles in urban centers and hydrocarbon and/or hybrids in rural areas.
I see it as perfectly reasonable that gas vehicles will exist in certain scenarios. 🫂
You sound like a smarmy ding-dong who is completely blind to the dystopic future.
The horse and buggy was replaced because it was technologically inferior to the automobile in every category.
You are conflating an idealogically driven supplanting with what was a natural technological replacement.
"Sorry"
Nah. I've just been using technology for 30 years and understand it and it's trends.