I'm not sure I should write down these thoughts right now while I'm not sure about them, but if you are reading this apparently I did.

I think nostr may already be doomed for two reasons. And as a result of that, if I conclude as such, it would make sense to start working on a successor protocol. I've been taking some notes about what we should change if we started over, but that's the extent of it, I'm not working on a successor protocol. I'm only working on nostr. So don't misinterpret this note, which just represents some thoughts I've been having.

Reason one is the misaligned incentives of note copying. The incentives are to copy your notes to every relay you can, blast them out everywhere, to get more reach. That incentive doesn't go away until and unless all the clients do the outbox model. But they don't have an incentive to change, and there are people who don't give a fuck about fixing this and argue against fixing it and argue for note copying, and there is no way in a free society to make them care. So we can never fix this, and nostr will always be centralized in practice and never what it could have been. That means nostr is doomed and unfixable and we should make sure to start differently next time so this doesn't happen again.

Reason two is that the seed culture of nostr was far too monolithic: bitcoiners. What a culture develops into probably depends on how diverse its seed was. It's quite hard to get people onto nostr unless they are at least very bitcoin tolerant. Most people (yes, I think most) are put off by so much bitcoin promotion and related posts. Certainly people can follow anybody they want, and make their own independent cultures, perhaps even on a disjoint set of relays. But this isn't likely to happen due to the law of large numbers - there are far more ways for them to encounter and interact with the nest of bitcoiners then to not encounter and interact with them.

These are thoughts I'm entirely unsure about. Maybe I'm wrong in both cases. These are my worries.

I'll offer an optimistic take on both of your concerns:

1. I believe that most nostr clients will implement some form of outbox support. All Primal clients certainly will. We are literally a few days from releasing a major update. Once users’ notes are spread out over hundreds (eventually thousands) of relays, client devs will be incentivized to upgrade their clients accordingly. It will take a bit of time, but that’s okay.

2. Nostr being seeded with bitcoiners is a feature, not a bug. To bootstrap a truly decentralized network, we need the initial group of users who understand decentralization and are willing to fight for it. There is no other way imho. The short term price we are paying is that the content is bitcoin-centric, but that’s fine. That will get sorted out over time as the network grows.

IMO, we need to lower our time preference and be more patient. Everything is moving in the right direction.

We don’t need a successor protocol. Nostr is the one we’ve been looking for.

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That is very hopeful and hard to disagree with. Thanks.

🫂

I think the monetization of relays is necessary @miljan

agreed

At least have a option in every relay for donations for the relay.

I've always thought so too

Why is it necessary?

There’s no such thing as a free lunch.

The huge amount of software libraries I can download for free seems to disagree with that assertion.

Also, there can be non-profits. They can be founded trough donations, rather than payments.

This is a kind of profit

for make more relays

🤙

🤘🏻🌌

I agree with you, plus we’re way way too early to throw in the towel for Nostr

Absolutely grounded & wonderful response.

will happen over time non-techs to arrive.

I agree I believe that when the world sentiment sentiment changes, and it will the writing is on the wall. People will flock to nostr to escape the insane finanal and social controls on the way.

WELL SAID MILJAN. ONWARD. 🫡

nostr:npub12vkcxr0luzwp8e673v29eqjhrr7p9vqq8asav85swaepclllj09sylpugg paving the way again!

nostr:note1parhmn2q9pqtg9h6ysrsu0e7d43z63dq6cmvl3fnctq26fugwnxsv3vkxl

#YESTR gradually, then suddenly.. 🫂💜🍀

Nostr is the next nostr. No second best.

just to add on 2nd point .. we want everyone to care (and talk ) about #bitcoin because Bitcoin is the only thing that reaches everyone .. it is #value .. all other cultures are sub cultures of Bitcoin ..even those who don't care about value :-)

yes, and furthermore I support ever increasing merging of the two protocols, such as we are seeing with mutiny wallet. nostr will bring more people into protecting their labor energy. decentralized communication and money are good for everyone. inevitability there will be AIs and sorting algos that can curate content based on taste and interests.

Patience with the Protocol is the key. 🤙🏻

Coincido completamente 🫡🫡👏 Miljan

Agree 100%.

Nostr, like Bitcoin, is never finished. And we need to continue building the future we want to see. 🧡

Onwards 🫡

Agreed. We're already seeing people attempt to make non-bitcoin centric. I'm sure we may see other siloed attempts as well.

@note1lcu000wx6cjqxzd937dkz82lezprcq0za4ux8wuf5gmud80n9txsh8tvhj

That’s funny. They’re welcome to do this but they’re not going to get any of the bootstrap cohort so unless they can bring their own user base it’s DOA

Ok, it's not technically Bitcoin, but it's still cryptocurrency-related (and a cryptocurrency strongly tied to Bitcoin and supported by Satoshi when it was called "BitDNS").

NIP-05 trough Namecoin or ENS, however, would indeed solve the problem of DNS centralization on Nostr.

YES. WE (MAINLY YOU NOT ME LOL) WILL FIND A WAY.

It's inspiring to see such a clear vision for the future of #Nostr and a deep commitment to its decentralized principles.

I wholeheartedly agree that addressing concerns about client support and the initial user base will naturally resolve over time as the network grows and matures.

The emphasis on patience and a long-term view is particularly reassuring, as it reflects a deep understanding of the challenges and opportunities ahead.

I share your optimism and enthusiasm for Nostr's potential to become a cornerstone of the decentralized ecosystem.

Let's continue to support its growth and development!

💪💪💪

Love this take that Bitcoiners are a feature not a bug. Primal has led the way in integrating the features Bitcoiners have asked for while understanding that over time the content pool will expand.

nostr:nevent1qqsq73mae4qzss95zmazgpcw8ulx6c3dgksdvdk0c5eu9s9dy7y8fngpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygxkruautvltgsqwlkhxz6d9c972hueyddg5xcw7jwwwfgdqmfh0fgpsgqqqqqqsy3exjs

Plus, someone always has to be first. I don't think we mind dying on this hill.

#Bitcoin wouldn't have made it without these types of people. Now look at it. I don't see how #Nostr is any different.

The people who aren't Bitcoiners probably haven't fought for much and don't care as much about the principles that make Nostr great (yet). They'd likely just end up with another version of what they all already flock to.

I think they will come to Nostr as things get worse, but the seed of liberty is required first. Most people follow and flock to what people like us create. They don't create themselves.

Basically, I don't think Nostr would have happened without Bitcoiners and frankly, it didn't. It didn't exist before.

I think people will adopt it and bring their crowds over once it's ready to receive them. Why? Because those other platforms aren't going to become more free over time. I just don't see it happening. People, whether they know it or not, do prefer freedom. It just takes people like us to build it and make it easy for them.

nostr:nevent1qqsq73mae4qzss95zmazgpcw8ulx6c3dgksdvdk0c5eu9s9dy7y8fngpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzp4sl80zm866yqrha4esknfwp0j4lxfrt29pkrh5nnnj2rgx6dm62qvzqqqqqqyygx70q

🫂🫂

💯 nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr it is very very early, everyone needs to cultivate patience and allow the experiment-observe-refine cycle so it’s thing, give everyone space and time to build out and experiment with what we already know is ahead, and

**have fun along the way** #nostr 🫂

give it some time ya

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Everything will build on bitcoin, so it makes sense that nostr is seeded by bitcoiners..

nostr:note1parhmn2q9pqtg9h6ysrsu0e7d43z63dq6cmvl3fnctq26fugwnxsv3vkxl

Much love. Thank You

🫡

Thank you for sharing your optimistic perspective! As newcomers to Primal, we've been truly impressed by the quality and relevance of the content on this platform. We're excited about the next big update. Exciting times ahead for Primal and Nostr! 🚀

GM 🤙💜

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