Monero user nostr:nprofile1qqs27aqdrx96hwx8hqks53ccav65hvlk47dfscumsh22tncnw89t4pgppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucnpdejz7q7z90p says monero has better receiver privacy than lightning. I issued him a challenge. Will he accept it? 
Discussion
I specified the challenge a bit more:
I'm agree with you but We have to recognize that monero for some things is better than bitcoin LN.
privacy at 1 dollar is better in LN than in monero. but you can't send 100,000 dollars on LN.
Maybe I'm wrong...
What an interesting experiment! Due to the imperfect receiver privacy of monero, I am able to identify the exact address where he received money as well as the exact amount in that address. I can also watch the blockchain to see if it shows up as a possible spender in a future transaction. Neat stuff! Now let's wait and find out: can nostr:nprofile1qqs27aqdrx96hwx8hqks53ccav65hvlk47dfscumsh22tncnw89t4pgppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucnpdejz7q7z90p tell me similar info for the LN payment he sent to me? Stay tuned! 
What a conclusion! I traced the XMR and identified its destination AND the total amount in that address on monero. nostr:npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn meanwhile, could not trace my BTC or identify its destination or the total amount in the channel where it ended up. Is XMR worse than LN after all?
You mean to tell me that lightning makes shitcoins irrelevant?
What kind of invoice was this that the destination node id is not in the invoice?
There are four ways to create an invoice with a "decoy" node id:
- I used lnproxy.org to "wrap" my invoice so that instead of "my" node id appearing there, lnproxy's appeared there
- you can also toggle the "blinded paths" option in LND or Zeus Wallet. Among other things, that option replaces your node id with a dummy key
- you can also use TransLND or Valet Wallet, which have an optional feature where they will create a decoy pubkey for all of your invoices by pretending that your node is a routing node and the "real" recipient is a node it just made up
- you can also use Voltage or my Zaplocker software, which have an option to wrap all invoices so that all inbound payments to your wallet appear to go to Voltage's node or the Zaplocker server, even though they really get forwarded to the recipient
Also, it is worth pointing out that even without doing any of this, the public key in an LN invoice does not actually receive money, it is only used to sign communication messages.
As a result, it does not reveal which node it belongs to unless that node's network address and channels are gossipped via the LN gossip protocol, and that only happens if it is a routing node. A simple wallet with ungossipped channels does not reveal the network address of the node that controls it, so the pubkey in an LN invoice cannot be used by itself to find your node.
I see, so lnproxy's node id (or the fake one they use) was missing in the screenshots above. It's in the signature there probably. That got me confused a bit.
Where did I say that? 😂
Here is our conversation
Oops, sorry! You said "better UX for privacy," not "better privacy." Well, I was able to use that slick privacy UX to dox one of your one-time-use addresses as well as the exact amount of xmr in it. Your turn: can you dox my lightning channel and the exact amount of btc in it? We're waiting! Let's find out if the privacy UX of monero really is as good as you say!
Don't miss the exciting conclusion to this little drama! nostr:nevent1qqsdpyuve6csqe30ej6rtusftcc3z4xxae8xdaqjlz77kqhzzluwlgcpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgq3qyxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96st6xzz5
In my opinion this is all theater.
Using a view key to see the details of a transaction is part of the design of monero.
I think both sides of this tedious argument have been constantly making half-baked claims about something on the other side that fits their narrative for ages now. I am growing super tired of it.
Go help your shitcoiner frend on this challenge
how about i challege *you to give me specific information (that I will select) about a specific transaction?
and if you fail
obviously my general, nonspecific claims about privacy are correct
and yours are wrong.
just like nostr:nprofile1qqszrqlfgavys8g0zf8mmy79dn92ghn723wwawx49py0nqjn7jtmjagpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9ekk7mf0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uynmh4h designs his "challenges"
my basedcoin frens didn't learn the magic trick that makes him disappear, everytime I mention "LN on FCMP", he immediately stops replying to the threads
if you are a hobbyist LN can definitely empower you but it's not a serious payments network for everyone, otherwise none of you would have `coinos` in bio, hence why this hobby can also come to XMR without an issue for anyone that would like to spend time on that
nostr:note1pg4lep6yf65599m78rpgf4e7x75pkpgr2wv6akzjdvzl97ncljeqgd35uv
this is exactly the kind of disingenuous bullshit that makes you a bad actor.
do you honestly think this helps users make better decisions?
Not sure how this is bullshit.
This could be a practical demonstration for users to make informed txns.
its bullshit because *he sent the monero*
which is how he knows that information.
but he isn't saying it.
his "point" is
the *sender of a tx knows more about the *receiver on monero
than on LN
which is true
and irrelevant in most cases.
but he enjoys misrepresenting it to mean more than it does.
Is that not the exact use case you WANT privacy for? When I send a user funds.. at least a big part.
Yeah I get the whole overhead tracking the chain surveillance government bs,, but he didn't say that at all in these.
He never said he can track all monero txs and I didnt get that impression from the posts.
sending a monero tx isn't "tracing monero"
hes clearly saying he can trace monero
and knows uninformed retards like nostr:nevent1qqszt2rej65lgngj50cadfg8uzd7d744ehr052w4vmmhzul8hxyejvqpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtczypgdujfvle28y3gd7xspwm7ldkg4a97ttk0c60kvaa7jtlc23pcauqcyqqqqqqgfckvjv will pretend like it gospel
iow
disingenuous bullshit
I'll be the first to say 
So as long as you aren't PART of the tx it's untraceable and the amount can't be known.
I'm splitting hairs here sure but this reads a certain way.
And this is coming from a guy who I think you'd agree we have had discussion in good faith so no gotchas here. Just trying to understand.
So in this test, the sender used a view key (part of moneros design) to see exactly where he sent the Monero, which he knew from the beginning, including the amount that he sent. This is natural for a layer one blockchain transaction. And to me, means the test is fairly disingenuous.
Also this fued is stupid in my opinion.
this is a correct opinion
we're good homie
I'm not saying his "challenge" doesnt show anything at all
I'm just saying STN is misrepresenting it.
in a way that is unhelpful to people.
and he gets the back of my hand.
I did what? I read and shared a thread that proved sending XMR is not as private as sending bitcoin over lightning in the eyes of the SENDER. Seems like you’re angry and big time mad about this outcome. And fuck you for calling me a retard you can suck my retarded dick.
> and irrelevant in most cases
It is highly relevant when you're being tracked by authorities. They typically start by sending you some money and then watching what happens to it next on the blockchain. E.g. that's what they did in this case where they traced a finnish man's monero: https://cointelegraph.com/news/finnish-authorities-traced-monero-vastaamo-hack
And in the Columbian case (where they ALSO traced a guy's monero) they also relied on the ability of the sender (in this case, Morphtoken) to point out exactly where he sent the money: https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-leak-monero-traceability
Lightning fixes this.
The simple fact is, on lightning, the sender can't trace his own payment, but on monero, he can, and this difference helps authorities arrest monero users.
nobody is denying targeted surveillance is possible.
stop acting like a fucking twat.
As Kanzan points out, monero has serious weaknesses against targeted surveillance
If *you* are worried about targeted surveillance, lightning offers better privacy than monero
yes
feel free to investigate if running a full LN stack yourself
is a better fit for your privacy model than just using #Monero.
Well, technically speaking, Monero isn't actually at fault in any of these stories.
Both of these stories start with exchanges telling the authorities what pubkey received their money. The fact that they *know* what pubkey received their money (and can prove it) is a design flaw in monero. Lightning fixes it.
Also, in both of these stories, after the money went from the exchange to the user's pubkey, the analysts watched the blockchain to see where the money moved next, and it went to another exchange with a probabilistic identifier marking the user's pubkey as a possible sender. This enabled them to contact that exchange and find out the user's identity, which led to an arrest in one case and better evidence for the charges in the other.
Lightning fixes this too, because not only does lightning not tell them what channel the money went into in the first place, but when it moves out of the channel, the analysts don't get to see that, because the transaction isn't broadcasted. So they never see the money go to an exchange and thus can never know to contact them to obtain the user's identity.
Targeted surveillance is possible even with Lightning as well; it's just that the attack vector would be different. And that's not Lightning's fault either, just like it wasn't Monero's fault in previous cases.
I like that I can point out how lightning fixes a privacy attack vector and the response is "ok but it doesn't fix ALL attack vectors -- there's probably some other one it's vulnerable to."
Yeah, probably. But even if other attack vectors exist, that's no reason not to fix this one. I think monero should fix it too, and I am glad FCMP is being worked on to hopefully do that.
I don't see any major issue here that urgently needs fixing — it feels more like a hassle that just requires some extra steps to get around.
Even the sun has spots. 😏
Aside from being a tool for your spy games involving heroin sales and the purchase of military secrets, Monero is also just a regular means of payment, and things like this theoretically make it easier to use. You can come up with several scenarios where this "vulnerability" automates problem-solving.
What about sending Monero through trocador to a Lightning address? How traceable is that? best or both worlds? 🤔 dbl privacy?
I think flipping monero through Robosats to a empheral LN node excellent.
or vice versa of course.
Fun experiment :)