This is great. Itâs always in the dev list, bitcoin optech, and a few other avenues where you I have to hunt to get this sort of discussion. But it would be good to see it brought to the forefront more.
Thatâs a yes from me on this idea.
Discussion
You read a lot of material about bitcoin. But you seem to only read material that has a right wing libertarian ancap angle. Too me one of the biggest problems bitcoin faces is the RW domination of narrative, when bitcoin is equally a perfection of communism as well as capitalism.
Recently I came across a mathematician whose about to publish a paper that proves Bitcoin's zero entropy makes it both capitalist/communist, individualist as well as collectivist.
My question to you is will you read this material publicly? Or will you edit it out of existence and therefore keep perpetuating the myth that bitcoin is a right wing fulfillment of the austrian school when it is equally a fulfillment of Marx?
Marxism is nonsense and the idea that Iâm âediting something out of existenceâ by not wasting my extremely scarce time trying to pretzel twist a philosophy thatâs totally against property rights and the most basic individual morality probably tells me enough of what I need to know about why you believe it.
Just a note: being accusatory about why I donât read or share what YOU think as if I have some obligation to work for you is about the fastest way to get me to not care what you wanted out of me. Iconic Marxist, believing you own a fucking second of how I spend my life or time.
I'm sorry if you sensed a political angle in my intent, but I'm coming to you as a mathematician (there is no politics in math).
Zero entropy in a value system expands the Overton Window to embrace both left and right wing philosophies into a new reality and has another interesting bi-fold effect. It deletes Time as a decay factor which perfects individual ownership for eternity. This can be called a fulfillment of capitalism/individualism
But the same zero entropy deletes all time completely and transmit all individual enhancement of bitcoin value to all others holders of Bitcoin. This can be described as the fulfillment of Communism.
I used to be an Austrian economist but the moment I read the bitcoin whitepaper and realized the implications of zero entropic systems. I was delighted with the idea that every self sovereign individual pursuing their self interest, is automatically converted into a social benefit for the entire bitcoin community (The Communist Hero). This then would be the perfect answer to lefties and invitation for their participation, therefore accelerating adoption so much faster
Check the math below
Austrian = low entropy S2F = 62
Bitcoin = 0 Entropy S2F = infinity
Unless you can prove 62 = 0 or 62 = infinity, the Austrian School (an all other heterodox economics) are completely invalid
In other words, Bitcoin did to the Austrians and Marxists what the car did to horses. I think that would be worth reading about.
I, for one, think both Marxism and anarcho-capitalism are broken ideologies!
Are the ideologies broken? Or are the implementations of the ideologies fundamentally flawed, because they were both easy to corrupt? Hate the game, not the players.
Fix the game, fix the incentives, fix the outcome = love the players.
Iâm not a mathematician. Economics is not math, at all. You havenât listened to any of the 100s of articles, book, papers and the rest on economics and my further explanations of them if you think economics and math are anything alike.
Economics is the study of human choice and valuation. These things cannot be reduced to mathematical equations at all, and this is literally a huge part of the fundamental foolishness of mainstream economics.
Can you explain what you mean by "zero entropy in a value system expands the Overton Window to embrace both left and right wing philosophies into a new reality ...".
I know what all of these words mean. But I definitely don't know what this sentence means.
This, I like. You call it zero entropy, I call it, the alignment of incentives⌠selfish best interest=greater good=perfectly designed system for humanity.
In addition, the suggestion that BTC is right winged is also evidence of an immature understanding of the tech. BTC is for everyone it doesnât discriminate based on idiotic or impractical beliefs⌠it just works, tick tock, next block. Believe whatever you want BTC literally does NOT care.
This.
I have a lot of respect and appreciate numerous left voices in bitcoin. I am still socially left on a lot of issues, however the left is *generally* supportive of absolute nonsense when it comes to economics, which is reeeeaaally hard to reconcile. And more importantly itâs fundamentally imbedded into bitcoin. You can argue all day about what philosophy it supports, but there is no wiggle room whatever to the economic principles instantiated by bitcoin.
The idea that my refusal to share Marxist ideas on the makes me âright wingâ is, imo, very shallow thinking, especially lumping that in with libertarianism and ancap as if these are all the same. đ¤¨
Stop thinking/talking about empty terms like "left and right" and starting using "anarchist vs statist" instead.
Apologies, BTC also doesnât care if your beliefs are intelligent and practical. The point is, the tech is completely impartial and thus the narrative can be whatever you want it to be for you. If you want to be a Socialist, a Marxist, a Tribalist, a Monachist, a Liberal, an Individual, a Greenie, A Flat Earther, A person of any colour, creed, religion, identifying with any nation, any gender, any sexual orientation⌠it does not care. That is the elegance and beauty of math.
My response was much more heated than warranted and I was onboard with a sensible conversation about it until he added the âedit it from existenceâ and âperpetuate the mythâ as if I owed him something by not trying to twist an aggressively anti-property rights ideology to fit the most fundamentally sound system of digital property ever implemented.
That shit gets to me in a very special way. That said, Iâm dumb for taking it personally despite the cheap accusation.
You could read it and give your take to it. Sort of like Moss-Svetski did, just less prep.
FairâŚ
I can only hope with truth as our base layer for exchange people stop all this tribalist bullshit. We are animals, we are not one thing, we are many things, in many different moments. What we are, who we are, how we act is most often situationally dependent.
As for your response, all the power to you, the shots were cheap, you do you. If the other person wants to do the work, create a following etc, he can create, perpetuate whatever narrative he chooses. Thatâs your prerogative for doing the work.
Personally I prefer the concept of reaping the seeds one sows, and I like that BTC allows my to store my âseedsâ for future exchange. If one wants to reap the seeds that others sow and share those seeds unevenly amongst everyone than the fiat system seems perfect for this purpose.
Nonetheless, Iâd like to read the mathematicianâs work on BTC being all things to all people ;-)
But in communist society there will be no sence to keep bitcoin network running.
Please explain?
To get products of common means of production you do not need to exchange values between people so you do not need means of exchange - money and BTC particulary.
Iâm sure you mean well but communism is an impractical ideal just as unconditional love is. The reality is if you add humans you canât have true communism or true unconditional love. Humans are animals and thus we are innately wired to act like animals. For an individual to fight against that is both incredibly noble and naive at the same time. To imagine a group of individuals in a community, other than a monastery (but even there I have my doubts), is only, naĂŻve.
When Buddha said, âpain is inevitable, suffering is optionalâ he was referring to humansâ propensity to attempt to rebel or fight against âwhat isâ. It is far wiser to accept us as we are, animals, prone to animalistic behaviour.
What I mean by this is, we are innately wired to look after ourselves and our loved ones ahead of all others and if that means to the detriment of all others, when push comes to shove, so be it.
Communism is real possibility, not dream and ideal.
Humans are product of development of society, conditions define who are humans at last.
No, it's not correct to think about humans as animals because we do not have instincts and humans has conciousness.
How do you act like animal for example?
I didn't catch your example with group of individuals and monastery. Can you explain?
It's strange for me to quote Buddha as argument, it can't prove anything I think.
Why do we need to accept that is not exist - animalistic behaviour of humans?
No, we do not need to limit ourselves by our close individuals (relatives, friends, so on). We are all humans the same at last.
đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤ŁBest of luck with all that.
There is no intersection between BTC and the economics of Marxism.
Marx's labor theory of value is the most absurd, ridiculous and laughable piece ever written. It's literal nonsense. Most importantly, Marx's understanding of human incentives and motives is completely wrong. A fantasy without roots in reality.
Anyone who in this day and age bases his understanding of political economics on Marx's theory is simply intellectually dishonest, or stupid.
If you want to desperately grasp at straws to be edgy and try to somehow mix Marx and BTC, you can appeal to the mythical stateless society to come after the struggle of the revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat.
And even then, the overlap with market anarchism continues to be the most natural one.
That's not "right wing" by the way, just like "Austrian" economics is not "Austrian". It's just economics without adjectives.
We've never had a zero entropy value and storage system so there is no conceptual space for traditional RW ideology (based on low entropy) on a mathematically unique invention that has no compatibility with ANY heterodox economics from the 20th century.
Bitcoin fulfills individualism economics because it assures ownership completely and is time impervious from any decay
Bitcoin fulfills community-ism in that it transmits all individual enhancements of private value into a collective enhancement.
The first bit is commonly called capitalism, the 2nd part is commonly called communism. The point is both systems are now invalid because Bitcoin's fixed denominator math has fused the 2 into a new gestalt
You only understand half of what Bitcoin is. I suggest you drop your ideology and be humble and let the data guide you to conclusion
Still grasping at straws I see.
The "transmission of individual enhancements of private value" is not "communism", and it doesn't matter how much you contort language and definitions, it has nothing to do with marxism.
The mechanism by which this is achieved is simple and well known - market and voluntarism. When you have these, the aggregation of individual positives is not a zero sum, as it is in communism.
Your maths and "data" are useless in a purely moral and social field like economics.
BTC does not contradicts to Marxist theory.
If you do not understand something it doesn't mean it is absurd.
#NoArguments
Marxism is inherently opposed to something like a decentralized medium of exchange that enables individual sovereign wealth. That you can reconcile your religion with BTC is not BTC's problem, or mine.
Now get lost or be blocked.
#FuckCommies
Marxism is about social production of common goods for consuming, not for exchange at all.
To judge about something you need to know the subject.
As I said, get lost.
This guy posts the same comments from multiple accounts and across multiple social media with the same dumb, vapid garbage. After a few comments they will vomit up a long, empty âuniversal entropyâ word salad.
Just block them. Either itâs a bot, or someone who thinks whining at other people to do something is being useful. Given the values they argue it could be either. Regardless, itâs 100% time wasted talking to them. đ
Glad to hear that, highly respect your opinion!
Thanks for chiming in, Guy đ