Nostr Web Client

Replying to

Carman

Ran some analytics on zaps on nostr, it's quite terrible...

~95% of users have their lightning address set to a custodial wallet

~91% of all zaps by volume have gone to a custodial wallet

#[0] is the clear winner of 50% of users and 67.5% of volume

Image

https://void.cat/d/EKGYForUhDn1R24R7FsMHy.webp

https://void.cat/d/U5JDSpKhiULH3ksnKEnbjP.webp

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

One of the saddest things I could have read today. 4 key takeaways:

1. This is what happens when we don't properly prioritize solving LN's issues w/ non-custodial usage or prioritize self-sovereign setups, and when we normalize "it's just for small amounts bro"

2. The fact that BOLT 12 hasn't been widely adopted after more than 2 years (or even *implemented* in LND?!?) is depressing. Zaps have to drive BOLT 12 adoption ASAP.

3. Good luck getting all of these non-technical WoS users to migrate to self-sovereign setups now that they've tasted the convenience of trusting someone else entirely, aka PayPal 2.0. Even when we improve self-sovereign setups it will be much harder now to build momentum

4. The fact that #[1] can even do this analysis shows the serious privacy issues with Zaps - let's make private/anon Zaps the default in *all* clients, please

More on BOLT 12 if you're new to the concept:

https://bolt12.org/

#[0]

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Discussion

utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 2y ago

Everyone has complaints but nobody has pull requests.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Sadly I don't have the technical acument nor time to do the actual dev work, so I'm doing what I can and continuing to raise awareness and push users to put pressure on devs and projects.

I've contributed where I can to docs and educational resources in the meantime. Trust me, if I could contribute the necessary code it would have been done long ago.

Technomancer 2y ago

What is needed is a user friendly solution. I had no problem setting up and running a node, but I'm tech savy.

I still use wallet of satoshi for this for convenience. I transfer SATs to my node if it reaches 10$

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Of course we need that, so we need more pressure on projects like LND to do the right thing and prioritize BOLT 12 which *greatly* simplifies a non-custodial setup that would work with Zaps.

In the meantime while I understand people using WoS etc., I think it sets a very bad precedent.

hxn⚡️ 2y ago

I want BOLT12 as much as anybody. What can the humble plebs do?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Pressure Lightning Labs to actually get their ass in gear and focus on BOLT 12 instead of NFTs.

One of them has generational impact on LN/Bitcoin usage, the other are stupid monkey pictures over LN.

Roir Raw 2y ago

Zaps are inherently not private

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Zaps can easily be private, the framework is already there. We can do private Zaps which encrypt all information to the recipients pubkey, hiding comment/sender from the broader network, or we can do anon Zaps which are essentially the same as tips and reveal no information on the sender even to the recipient.

There's no need to reveal to the world our entire financial data to like a post.

Roir Raw 2y ago

There is, it’s part of the signal zaps carry

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Zaps can carry plenty of "signal" by just revealing amounts as a skin-in-the-game analog to likes.

Carman 2y ago

I would argue the opposite. The whole reason people are zapping is for social signaling, they want the payment to be public.

Since zaps are trusted on if the payment was actually made, we shouldnt reveal the actual lightning payment and try to protect the user's privacy around all of their other payments that they don't want public.

BITKARROT 2y ago

Zaps are meant to be public. If you want more private, just use invoices or send to LN addresses, it'll never show on nostr.

geodesic 2y ago

🎯

monk_cactus 2y ago

If anything about zaps on nostr strikes you as “sad” consider an alternative perspective

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Lol, ok.

So I should just blindly accept the custodial, transparent status quo and cheer people on for changing database entires in WoS and never even touching LN or Bitcoin?

monk_cactus 2y ago

No, but you can smile and celebrate how far this feature (zaps) has come in just a few months.

And then from this place of positivity, realize that the status quo is 100% due to the difficulties in creating your own lnurl, and with more time people will have a self-custodial solution

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

I have done both, I've been loving Zaps and cheering them on while also fighting for privacy at the same time.

I can both love a feature and want to see it built with privacy and self-sovereignty in mind from day one.

The longer we wait to think deeply about how we do this in a privacy-preserving way, the less people will do so and the less likely that it is done in a privacy-preserving way at all. We *have* to build from the ground up with privacy in mind.

XMR Future 2y ago

#BringBackThinkingAdversarially

monk_cactus 2y ago

And also, I want to say that I love your content, and am grateful for all the work you do. Just a difference of perspective :)

BHN 🍁 2y ago

Well, most people are willing to give up some freedom for some convenience. This likely won't change so this will stay like this, or get worse, until it's competition is almost as convenient.

Knowledge requirements of any system act as a barrier to entry and when most people are too busy to learn everything needed to safely use Bitcoin they won't bother.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

I've spent the last few years fighting this exact "tradeoff" for convenience and will continue to do so.

If we just assume that is true and don't try to build more approachable and useful self-sovereign tooling we'll speak this into existence.

j 2y ago

chill dawg. wos is no-kyc. of course, adding it to your social media profile kinda defeats the point, but only if you’re using your state identity as your social media identity, which you should not do!

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Not going to chill, the more we normalize it the less likely we see better non-custodial solutions.

j 2y ago

I was being facetious, good to be concerned but it’s still such a big improvement over fiat equivalents (except cash, of course) that we should also celebrate

HomelessG 2y ago

Seth I feel you’re screaming into a black hole. I wish you the best with your privacy push on bitcoin but I follow a lot of people in the bitcoin sphere and you’re the only one consistently calling out the lack of privacy. What’s also annoying is the few people who do care about privacy use monero in silence because they’re invested in bitcoins success

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

There are definitely others, sadly the minority but working on that 😉

Carman 2y ago

Anon zaps wouldn't change anything here.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Not the receive privacy/custody issues of course.

Modus 2y ago

Re #3: They'll see people get rugged and it will scare them into better options.