Long term, we need private money or it just gets traced / taxed / seized by the state anyway.
But truly private money makes for a bad store of value. You can’t audit the ledger, so a bug could create unlimited inflation that would be hard to detect.
So privacy is how you move money, not necessarily store it.
Monero ?
fedimint is pretty cool
💯 this is basically the case for chaumian ecash on top of bitcoin
This is where Bitcoin layers come in. The foundation is perfectly auditable (decent and improving privacy), while layers built on top make trade-offs for privacy/speed/cost.
If you can transfer from a bitcoin address to a new one, completely privately, and split the transaction across time and amount, that would work.
Are there any such working implementations?
Ecash, federations.. more new stuff.
Continuing education is import
this is why zcash never made sense, best to move privacy tech to L2s. Lightning is ok at this, not perfect, but decent.
Wonder if you create a privacy chain from the ground up that would automatically self-audit. Use ZK to count up all the balances without revealing them outside of the sum total.
Shitcoins are not the answer
Discounting everything that falls outside your narrowly defined boundaries without even studying & understanding why people far smarter than either of us bothered creating the 'shitcoin' is not the answer.
I am technical, and I spent plenty of time looking into 2015-17 era “alt”-coins. They’re all junk, and these days the sales pitches and promises are 100x lazier than in those days.
I am not an expert in every “Bitcoin 2.0” but I have looked at enough of them in detail to have an opinion. Their only value is in the casino
Do it on a sidechain then!!
> Use ZK to count up all the balances without revealing them outside of the sum total
that's how UTXOs already work in privacy coins: pedersen commitments + bulletproofs are used to self-audit every balance without revealing them outside of the sum total https://www.moneroinflation.com/amounts_confidential_tx
Learn Monero.
zcash would be better off as a shielded sidechain from the start since if they kept their dev-tax they would be paid in sats as fee
The tx may not be traceable and possibly impossible to tax but still seizable
Are you a fan of Ecash?
nostr:npub1a2cww4kn9wqte4ry70vyfwqyqvpswksna27rtxd8vty6c74era8sdcw83a zapped ⚡️12,345 sats
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Check https://www.moneroinflation.com for a possible rebuttal to the argument that the ledger cannot be audited because it's not transparent.
I agree with Naval's take. And this is a thesis I've been investing with for some time.
In the long run, privacy is super important for working capital. Sending and receiving with high velocity, privately.
But then once you gain a significant surplus, you want to be able to pull that capital onto a supply-auditable base layer for longer-term savings. The supply-auditable base layer isn't as private, but since it is pseudonymous it inherits some of the privacy from the fact that you've pulled it down to that layer from private working capital.
There are different trade-offs for spending wallets and savings wallets, when it comes to privacy, security, etc.
Wallets that use the open-source Cashu protocol are great for private working capital. And Nostr has been great at integrating them recently.
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#Bitcoin
Sounds that 2 monies are needed then: #Bitcoin with #Whirlpool in protocol for storing, #Monero with something like #Lightning on it for spending, and a 2-way peg between them.🤔
Honestly Lightning on Bitcoin is offering already a pretty decent level of privacy.
Simple taproot channels, blinded path are already a reality, and PTLC and other things will make it even better. We just need more reliability on the routing and less force close but it will improve eventually.
Let's say Ark also delivers too and become something, I think we are good to go on a "privacy by default" level, as long as you are not targeted by a 3 letter agency because you are a specific threat.
Concerning the monero thing, you already have atomic swaps between the 2 chains available which could be your 2 way peg system.
Glad you’ve made the leap to Nostr.
I hope this becomes your favored place to share wisdom going forward.
I'm not aware of any proof private money can't be made with auditable ledgers
There are many manipulative and fraudulent schemes based on transaction history information. This is why private transactions are necessary at this stage in the development of our society.
John Mcafee was working on this problem while on the run from the US Government.
We do not need it long term, we need it now.
Fare point
Bitcoin + Ecash
perhaps there might be a way to eliminate identity and maintain fluidity in the strength of transactions, making it self evident to expand common use cases
Lightning Network can be used for this
nostr:npub1n5r9lpxqewnmpmux7hfdz40xecq30z52x0sef7vend6f0vdjyqds020ngn Your insights on the balance between privacy and the functionality of money are spot on. While private money ensures anonymity and protects against state interference, it does present challenges as a store of value. The lack of auditability in a private ledger could indeed lead to undetected inflationary bugs. Therefore, the optimal approach is to leverage privacy for the movement of money, ensuring transactions are secure and discreet, while using more transparent and reliable forms of currency for long-term storage. This strategy harmonizes the need for privacy with the necessity of maintaining value integrity.
Fully agree!!!
I want to move 1 BTC privately without storing or getting rugged. What are the possible options?
Lightning and ecash are pretty good for this
Slowly they start to understand why Bitcoin and Monero are two sides of the same coin.
Is this where Monero enters the room?
The Zcash sidechain that Drivechains enable is gonna be sick 🔥
bolt 12 lightning is almost as private as it gets. Privacy and SoV are possible and will soon be achieved
Exactly - Bitcoin is a protocol bounded by energy that is coming in layers driven by the free market. Interoperability layer is lightning and then Fedimint/ecash - completely private with different trade offs. The combinatory nature of these + nostr in this protocol stack gives something that is very early in scaling, but beautiful and impossible to stop.
Happy to chat more!
You need protocol level privacy. Stop justifying doing it on the app layer.
It cannot be both decentralized abd censorship resistant.
Furthermore you are ALREADY trusting cryptographic primitives everytime you use BTC. Why would you refuse OTHER primitives that provide privacy???
Bitcoiners are racist against range proofs.
@naval gets it
We also need to replace cash.
Dash had a nice balance with built in mixers, you could just push a button in the wallet and get an endless stream of mixing txs. Of course it's not as private as zec, but it was information theoretically sound if you didn't accidentally recombine your utxos after mixing.
This is also why zec needs unshielded txs. How do you do price discovery if you can't see what other people are trading it for?
This is exactly what I said. So why did you block me on Twitter? 😂
Snowbridge, a trustless bridge without multisigs, connects Polkadot and Ethereum and effectively makes Polkadot a L2 of Ethereum. It follows both Polkadot's consensus and Ethereum's via a light client.
for more info: https://docs.snowbridge.network/
Monero does a good job at both, which I do advocate for the use of (despite many Bitcoiners on here trashing me for it).
Monero is working great.
The only good thing is that all these maxis are slowly understanding the need for privacy and why Monero solved all those topics a long time ago.
Monero is working great.
The only good thing is that all these maxis are slowly understanding the need for privacy and why Monero solved all those topics a long time ago.
privacy and auditing on L1
Using zk-SNARKs, miners can issue new bitcoins to addresses controlled by users who burnt their coins while ensuring privacy and auditability. This method leverages advanced cryptographic techniques to achieve the desired outcome without compromising the integrity or transparency of the Bitcoin network. However, the implementation would require substantial changes to the protocol and broad community support.
1. **Burning Transaction**:
- Alice wants to burn 1 BTC. She sends 1 BTC to a known burner address and generates a zk-SNARK proof, which she submits along with the transaction.
- This proof shows that she owned 1 BTC, sent it to the burner address, and provides a new address (e.g., `NewAliceAddress`) controlled by her.
2. **Proof Submission**:
- Alice submits the transaction and proof to the Bitcoin network. Miners collect this proof and transaction data.
3. **Verification**:
- Miners use zk-SNARK verification algorithms to check the proof. This ensures that the conditions (ownership, burning, and new address) are met without revealing any unnecessary information.
4. **New Coin Creation**:
- Upon successful verification, miners include a special transaction in a new block that creates 1 BTC and sends it to `NewAliceAddress`.
- The issuance of new coins is now recorded on the blockchain, maintaining transparency and auditability.
### Privacy and Security Considerations
- **Privacy**: The use of zk-SNARKs ensures that the details of the original burnt bitcoins and the new addresses are not linked publicly, preserving user privacy.
- **Security**: zk-SNARKs provide strong cryptographic guarantees that the proofs are valid without revealing sensitive information.
- **Auditability**: The blockchain records the issuance of new bitcoins transparently, allowing anyone to verify the total supply of bitcoins and ensure no double issuance.
### Challenges and Implementation
- **Complexity**: Implementing zk-SNARKs into Bitcoin's protocol is non-trivial and requires significant changes and testing.
- **Consensus**: Achieving consensus for such a change would be challenging and require broad agreement within the Bitcoin community.
- **Performance**: zk-SNARKs involve computational overhead, which might impact the performance and scalability of the Bitcoin network.
In a world where Bitcoin is used for transacting
If you create a new address for each incoming transaction
Which part is not private here?
What you are suggesting is a tornado cash equivalent for doxed addresses
Cashu is doing just that
This is a very good and important point.
It seems like that if we're not here already, we're very close to this.
In way or another :)
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