Paid for lunch with bitcoin today. It took a minute and cost a pretty high fee (compared to the lunch price). Not sustainable compared to a credit card where the merchant covers the small fee. How do you guys see this going mainstream?
Discussion
definitely not on the main chain.
i think we’d need lightning to scale and the technology itself would have to obscure much of what we experience today using wallets and paying invoices. i think merchants could drive adoption looking at the savings they’ll see on processing fees, but they won’t adopt it until there’s some level of demand. chicken and egg.
i don’t think bitcoin will be a medium of exchange in any meaningful sense for many years, maybe decades.
what’d you think?
I will use the main chain only to cut a few thousands sats off into my lighting wallet if i ever move them in my life
Why didn’t you use the Lightning network?
Not sure. Scanned the barcode with a tester WoS. Was like $3 extra.
It sounds like you scanned a bitcoin address. WoS will work automatically and pay it even if you only have lightning-derived funds. They handle the conversion for you but charge a fee. If it was a lightning invoice you wouldn’t see that fee.
That would be a merchant mistake, but we as bitcoin advocates need to be the one pushing for Lightning as most people in meatspace have never used it before.
Well, user error too if I can't tell the difference.
I think this is just a sign of how early we are. Eventually anyone who accepts bitcoin will know about lightning and it’ll be unthinkable to do onchain for small purchases.
That does bring up an interesting point, though. ​
#[4]​ charges an 0.5% fee to transact on-chain. This is still much lower than credit card merchant fees.
If we can convince merchants to accept Lightning payments that don’t cost anything to send or receive, even when they eventually withdraw their balance it to an on-chain wallet, they come out far ahead vs. credit cards.
This needs to be emphasized more.
True but they need to withdraw to fiat to pay bills. There’s also that fee.
Maybe batch receipts from lightning tx and do weekly/biweekly/monthly cash out? My 2 sats from peanut gallery.
I guess it depends on how tight their margins are. If bitcoin makes up only a tiny percentage of their revenue, maybe cashing out early is impractical and it’s better to hodl it. If course, some businesses want to settle in cash on the same day to avoid price fluctuations.
No one said transitioning to a bitcoin standard would be easy.
Pay with lightning. See if they accept that if not show coinos.com
Sorry .io not dot com
Even if I used lightning, I'm still on the hook for the fee on my end no?
No. Lightning fees are super tiny if any.
There are no fees charged if you use WoS.
You mean no fees WoS to WoS or at all? (Trying to understand. Not being a smart ass)
No fee to receive but may have a fee to send (not always I think) and that fee goes to lightning nodes. I think it’s a super small fee almost negligible. Maybe #[4]​ can chime in and confirm
Routing fees are not negligible.
But they *can* be non-existent.
Sender always pays for fees; receiver doesn’t even know what the fees were.
Still early for LN, most apps don’t even tell you how much you will pay for fees.
Fees will come down as the market grows.
Custodial LN has the highest fees (which is how you pay for the convenience, so it makes perfect sense)
These are all things that are trending towards the right direction of being solved.
I never notice them. Maybe I’m not paying attention 🤔
I have seen some fees but it has always been in a few sats amounts. Nothing to blink at.
What was the largest lightning fee you’ve paid?
Many routing nodes charge north of 1%.
I’ve paid multiple times five-digit amount of sats in fees.
Again, this is not a problem, it’s something that the market fixes on its own (as opposed to onchain fees which is not clear how the fee market evolves)
I just dug around my outgoing transactions. WoS 0 fee on every single transaction (I clicked around the 100k+ outgoing).
Munn 172 sats on 500k send. To me this is negligible.
Curious to see what others have seen.
Muun is not Lightning; it’s synthetic LN.
Good to know
Does it matter? If I keep $25-100 of cash in my pocket which could be easily lost or stolen, but provides various conveniences that outweigh that risk of loss (relative to the individual) why wouldn’t a hot-custodial wallet not be just as good if not better because it supports use of BTC, provides convenience and supports usage/growth. Just use a wallet that supports the ethos and makes that risk-reward a positive EV long term.
I’m not making a distinction between custodial and self-custodial Lightning, I’m making a distinction between how Muun and other LN wallets work.
Muun doesn’t give you the same way of doing custodial LN since they don’t hold your funds, so they do a more “synthetic” version of LN (since you as a user never really have an LN balance)
Just want to acknowledge convenience and adoption will require trust models at the usage level. Self custodial multi-sig doesn’t make an espresso easy to buy. Have to have both and guide people to manage risk. Using both models simultaneously ultimately enforces the NYKNYC understanding IMO.
You are talking about an entirely different topic: you are talking about trust models.
My comment was entirely about the technical differences of implementation that makes the comparison of fees paid under that model different (we were talking about fees, not trust models).
Looking back that is fair. Wrong thread to start that convo.
Mainchain is for
#1 opening and closing lightning channels
#2 cold storage of your sovereign wealth
#3 securing dickbutt JPEGs to permanent storage
Bright side... you are using the same interface... it was transparent to the final user, small steps... once you have the interface the other layers could be fixed.
If only that zap thing I heard so much about could be used to pay for food… #[0]
What makes you think that the merchant covers the transaction cost. The cost of inefficient fiat system is already included in all the goods and services we consume.
Bitcoin fixes this by being transparent and open, while second layer solutions, particularly Lightning Network take care of scalability.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Most merchants with the exception of maybe gas stations don't offer a discount for cash purchases. Therefore if something is priced at $10 - I only pay $10 whether I use cash or credit. If I use a credit card, the merchant covers the fee. It definitely is not cheaper if I use any crypto currency or network. At least not yet.
No free lunch.
you should have used lightning it works fine