Nostr enables the ONLY social network that has a chance at gaining mass market adoption AND has the potential to utilize POW for spam deterrence. No other clown world VC-funded ESG company will ever even consider using proof of work for anything.

One of the first arguments I always hear against POW is that raising the cost of posting a note will make it so only those with large amounts of hashpower will be able to post notes, and they will dominate the protocol with spam and psyops.

This argument doesn't make sense because if large entities will see value in expending their hashpower to spam nostr, then why aren't they spamming nostr right now while the cost to do so is absolutely free? They should be here already if it is worth their time to be, but it is not dominating nostr at all.

The fallacy is the assertion that those with great hashpower actually care to spend it spamming nostr only when it isn't free. In reality, they would rather spend that hashpower on ROI, like mining bitcoin. The ROI on spamming nostr will likely never match the ROI of spamming other social networks that have no POW cost.

When a normal user posts a dozen notes per day, the cost of adding a modest POW requirement is barely noticeable β€” roughly a webpage load time worth of waiting. But for a spammer, this cost becomes a material electrical expense that will reduce their capacity to spam. And with a dozen other social networks more popular than nostr, where do you think they will spend their time? Spamming the networks with zero POW costs, of course.

But, putting this POW barrier over nostr would allow legitimate users to flee to nostr for a spam- free experience while keeping spammers out. It could actually help nostr grow in its network effects.

Overall, I am shocked at how bearish people are on proof-of-work, especially bitcoiners.

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This POW integration ( nip13) is very unique indeed !

I wonder if people know you can adjust the POW in snort settings and what it means ?

Once companies realize using the Bitcoin network can enable them to achieve total systemic security for their computer network, some of them will choose to utilize it for this purpose. Militaries will be first to utilize the network in this way.

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I have the arcane knowledge πŸ‘€πŸ«ŽπŸ«ŽπŸ«ŽπŸ«ŽπŸ«Ž

I agree with what you're saying here. To add to it though I consider paid relays to be a streamlined version of PoW.

In the nostr PoW scenario, a normal computer or phone would not have enough power to quickly solve for a note with high PoW, there would be providers of PoW services which you would have to pay for them to solve your note. Same with Bitcoin, when you aquire it, you're essentially paying for the miners to solve the PoW for you since your own computer does not have the hash power.

So I think that in nostr, simply paying for a relay with lightning, *is PoW. (because it's Bitcoin) and it cuts the complexity down because you don't have to build specialized alternate PoW services. So the only reason you would want the nostr only style PoW would be if you didn't want to use Bitcoin/lightning.

Although one additional upside of a PoW nostr standard catching on would be that you could post to more relays, as your PoW service would be like a pass to multiple 'paid'(PoW) relays. Which is also something I think would be cool for paid relays to do is that when you pay for one, you can post to more than just one..

So yeah, we got options! πŸš€

Paying for a relay with lightning might be hearsay of work (HoW lol) but it's not proof, since there is no way to verify anything was actually paid.

PoW is PoW, but I agree that it makes sense to streamline it and just pay some big ASIC to do the pow fpr you over lightning. This is the future.

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Well said. Proof of thought. And work, you know, because of fingers and stuff.

PoW is essential to Bitcoin but PoW doesn't stop spam, it didn't take off when it was Hashcash and it also doesn't stop spam in Bitcoin, see inscriptions for example.

> then why aren't they spamming nostr right now while the cost to do so is absolutely free?

They are. When I turn off the Web of Trust filter in Nostur I see spam all the time, if you are not seeing it you are relying on your relays doing the filtering for you. Add relay.nostr.band and you will have spam in many replies (with WoT filter disabled).

I think there were other more critical reasons why hashcash wasn't adopted.

Yes, there is spam on nostr now. I'm saying that if POW would be required, the amount of spam on nostr would only decrease, not increase as some have said.

You may see inscriptions as spam on the bitcoin blockchain, but they are not spam (worthless) to the people who pay substantial material costs to create them. Spam has a cost, and raising the cost via POW (or mempool fees) will reduce the amount of spam that people are capable of producing.

The cost you mention for PoW only matters for protecting the history of transactions, it is irrelevant for spam, it actually protects the history of spam as well. PoW works because someone trying to redo transactions would have to have more PoW than the cumulative PoW of all others.

There is no cumulative PoW in nostr, unless you are proposing to turn nostr into a blockchain but that sounds absurd to me.

Maybe I'm missing something so don't let me stop you, if you find a way that works I'll even implement it in Nostur, but I'm not convinced right now.

Just a coincidental anecdote, yesterday I was trying another nostr website and was wondering why the submit button was so slow, when I looked at the produced JSON I understood why when I found a nonce in there 🀷

Respectfully, this is a very narrow view of the utility of POW. Innovation requires experimentation. POW is not necessarily ONLY useful for bitcoin just because bitcoin is the only proven use case thus far.

If this is the only reason for POW, why did satoshi add POW to the genesis block?

I’d even say we could add a POW requirement in the key pairs creation, like roughly 24h of work for a median 2023 CPU ; this would deter spammers even more if they know that every time they get banned by relays they’d have to spend a day to recreate just one account. Arguably with bot farms it could go way faster than a day, but that’s still a deterrent for spammers that would only impact normal users very slightly.

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