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Genuine, non-hater discussion topic incoming.

Bitcoiners like to say that Bitcoin is fully uncensorable, that governments can't fully take it down. The problem I see is that even though the *technology* can't be taken down, the means by which people can enter into using said technology can easily be cut off, and not just via KYC. While there's still the peer-to-peer aspect, that also could easily be targeted through surveillance, and unless people start to become fully anonymous (not realistic for most), that's not something you can stop.

On top of that fact, there's a lot of KYCed Bitcoin out there, and the problem with that is that if it's KYCed, it makes it pretty trivial for governments to surveil wallet addresses and transactions.

In this way, wouldn't it be wiser to use a privacy coin if you're okay with KYC? Also, if the legal system ever decides to make it virtually impossible to obtain Bitcoin and you're going to go the route of "privately" obtaining it, then you're not going to get very far if they can surveil all of that information.

To reiterate, I'm not a hater, not by a long shot. Aside from my personal issues with KYC keeping me from buying, I believe in the technology, and I think it's got some serious potential to be the basis for economic change. I'm also not specifically a Monero guy, even though I think that it has some MAJOR benefits. But the problem with Bitcoin's lack of privacy, as well as the fact that KYC is virtually unavoidable, make it hard for me to believe in the maxi opinion that Bitcoin is completely unstoppable. Again, I do agree that the technology itself can't be shut down, but if you can't legally obtain it and you can't truly obtain it privately, then I don't see how it's unstoppable.

Just some thoughts I had. I'm genuinely curious what some of you guys think about this subject.

#asknostr #Bitcoin #privacy #Monero

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Discussion

Deleted Account 1y ago

Globalism is a popular idea now, but there’s still around 200 independent national governments on Earth each greedy in their own way. Thanks to this competition, you’ll find a way to stack somewhere. Govs want independence too, and bitcoin is the only thing that’ll offer it. Else you’ll always have some empire to pay rent to.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

But the problem is that many people neither can, nor want to leave their country just for Bitcoin. What about those people?

Deleted Account 1y ago

I’d separate “can” from “want” first, as those branch off in different directions.

without “want” there’s not much you can do. someone else wanting it more will take your share.

if you want but can’t that’s a problem to solve for. all I can say that the proof of work will pay off

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

Sure, but most people would fall equally into the can't and don't want categories.

Deleted Account 1y ago

Perhaps. I like to start thinking from all 8.2 billion people. As great as bitcoin is, it does not do anything on its own, it’s all human activity.

Some people will help grow the network, but most likely won’t. Being aware of the ledger is already a contribution.

It’ll be there when anyone needs or wants it.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

Well, part of the problem is security (and I don't mean software security). If Bitcoin is to be mass adopted as a primary currency, people need to be able to trust that switching to it will allow them to continue to live life without being considered a criminal and active threat. If it's as simple as preventing people from buying it or spending it on anything other than P2P transactions, that doesn't give security and stability to anyone who isn't a hardcore anarchist maxi.

Deleted Account 1y ago

No one is going to hand it to them. You can’t fight against government overreach and expect it to be nice to you too.

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Benjamin Franklin

Fiat gotten us into deep shit, there’s no easy way out now.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

Also, I don't feel like that Ben Franklin quote is particularly applicable here. If Bitcoin were outlawed, people who choose family over code aren't choosing safety above freedom, they're choosing to live for their loved ones rather than gamble on buying something that is easily trackable, oj the off chance that hodling will fix the issue in their lifetime.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the argument would be for using Bitcoin over privacy coins in a situation like that. I guess that's one of the main arguments I'm making here, if you boil things down.

Deleted Account 1y ago

Bitcoin won’t help you break the law if that’s what you mean. You’ll have to move to a more favorable jurisdiction or give up capital gains entirely. Monero wins you privacy, but not much more wealth than just using fiat.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

Hmm yeah, that's what I was assuming. So, in other words, if someone can't/doesn't want to pack up everything and leave their home for Bitcoin if it becomes actively targeted, they shouldnt bother unless the law protects Bitcoin use, yes?

Deleted Account 1y ago

You could pledge allegiance to your local mafia, but yeah for normies it be over in that part of the world.

Rand 1y ago

do U have a local mafia?

Deleted Account 1y ago

It’s basically just our government 😇 the perks of being a tiny country. Doing any business you soon know everyone

Rand 1y ago

where if U care 2 share?

Deleted Account 1y ago

I’m not hard to doxx 😀 Google might tell you. An undisclosed eastern european country with all the leet hackers

Big Barry Bitcoin 1y ago

This is why a lot of people into bitcoin are accellerationists. People don't change en mass unless shit hits the fan hard first. We need to get worse than China to see a real breakout.

That said, we can just focus on ourselves and our loved ones and build our own communities to ensure that we can always survive.

Like bitcoin markets popping up in different locations, meetups where we can all trade with one another with relative safety.

Learning where we can go abroad to withdraw fiat converted from bitcoin in the cheapest way possible.

Understanding coin joins.

Taking risks with throwaway accounts and learning what you can and cannot get away with when dealing with banks.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

Sounds like it'd work out for people who are willing to go to extremes but what about the average person?

Big Barry Bitcoin 1y ago

They will stand on the shoulders of giants, but only when their ego allows them to. Privacy and self custody tools will improve in the meantime.

Eventually, the alternative will be more inconvenient. Not today, but in the future:

- Bitcoin will be necessary because it is the only way to keep up with your neighbour.

- Governments will overreach and declaring everything will cost you dearly while no one else does it.

- The effort to protect your bitcoin activity will be less than the consequences for not doing it.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

If a person has to risk jailtime or their lives, they won't use it unless they're a radical with nobody that depends on them. That's my concern with the concept. Hopefully it will never get to that point but I'm just speaking in theoreticals here.

Big Barry Bitcoin 1y ago

But many still do, a very good example is the prohibition where many just went underground.

Never 100% adoption until the alternative collapses or the government consedes and capitulates.

CitizenPedro 1y ago

If Bitcoin wasn’t like this perhaps it would’ve never entered the institutions.

PoW@MaX 1y ago

You have conjoin market

You have boat accident

You can just memorize the 12 words

If you know that #bitcoin is fuck you money.

nostr:nevent1qqs8dmnrrtqsu55v4mm3q9an4w2zvvwh93tmrqq2myzjzygrayfr6vqpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsyg9gnnynztcj6gfalmsnz4czcv4l0zrs6xwqm8ms6zqzny3antvwjupsgqqqqqqs9rch5g

aivii 1y ago

It's a trivial case: you can easily obtain non-KYC bitcoin through p2p platforms such bisq, peachbitcoin or robosats. You can also attend bitcoin meet-ups and buy IRL from others.

When talking about tech, you have to understand that there are tradeoffs. You can't have it all. This is the case with BTC and XMR: BTC is easily auditable because of its public ledger, XMR is more privacy focused but it comes with problems of supply auditabilty.

Bitcoin is impartial; you can setup a node, run a fulcrum server on it, confirm your balances quite easily and use lightning as well. It's not that difficult or costly as folks make it out to be lately. It can greatly improves privacy when dealing with Bitcoin as well as make you more self-sovereign.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

Aside from in-person P2P, I feel a DEX has major censorship avenues as well, since most fiat payments go through KYCed payment processors that could be forced to censor

aivii 1y ago

That's unlikely unless you are forbidden to send money to your family and friends through mobile banks and online payment services. Reads like FUD.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

How so?

If a nation makes Bitcoin illegal, KYCed, regulated payment apps will not be useful in purchasing Bitcoin, just as it won't work with exchanges either. You could still trade between each other but you wouldn't be able to buy anymore without leaving the country which most people can't and don't want to do.

aivii 1y ago

You are pushing FUD.

I don't want to entertain your bullshit scenarios.

Have fun staying poor.

Ape Mithrandir 1y ago

Every pleb should use P2P. Plenty of liquidity for the low income stacker.

#DontRiskItBisqIt #Robosats

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 1y ago

The concern is that most methods of trading fiat to Bitcoin on P2P DEXes are KYCed and could easily be forced to restrict transactions in that manner. Aside from cash by mail (which is immensely risky), it'd be difficult to implement a truly uncensorable means of buying Bitcoin through a DEX.

Ape Mithrandir 1y ago

Connecting with peers at meetups and building a social network for peer to peer transactions is best.

But bank transfers that are independent of your Bitcoin purchases are still vastly better than KYC'ing yourself on an exchange.