Monero supply: 18,147,820 ✅ scarcer
Bitcoin supply: 19,467,081
Monero block reward: 3 XMR every 10 minutes ✅scarcer
Bitcoin block reward: 6.25 BTC every 10 minutes
Monero blocksize: 0.3 MB ✅ smaller
Bitcoin blocksize: 4 MB
Monero full blockchain size: ~180 GB ✅ smaller
Bitcoin full blockchain size: ~500 GB
Reality meets the hypothetical
Monero average tx fee: $0.001 ✅ cheaper (gets cheaper with more use)
Bitcoin average tx fee: $5.10
Lol, pretending #Bitcoin #LN doesn't exist.
Thousands of other shirtcoins that are cheaper to transact, Bcash or banano to name a couple for you if you're interested. But no, you don't care about that.
LN =/= Bitcoin. LN requires a hot wallet, not final settlement, dependant on intermediary centralized nodes for a smooth routing experience, shittier privacy, weaker secruity, requires active node to secure funds, etc, etc, etc
Prove me wrong. Hold your entire stack on LN. Doubt.
Bcash (still a better MoE than Bitcoin) has the same privacy problems as Bitcoin and so does Banano and Nano. Reach more.
As I said, you don't care about the fees at all, retard 🤙💜
Madam Secretary, I already gave the gentleman all the information he needs to understand why he's wrong.
Few.
I know. I just love trolling the trolls 💜
So, tell me why don't you keep your whole stack on LN? Could it be all those trade offs i mentioned?
What happens in high fee environments? High lightning fees and force closed channels that make you pay high on chain fees anyways 😂 and without privacy it is moot anyway. LN is a farce
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You have completely failed to understand the security model.
"Supply" is irrelevant, there's one Bitcoin and one monero - a singleton which is divided among everyone who holds it and diluted at a specified rate. Monero has tailings, infinite inflation, infinite dilution of existing holders.
Monero doesn't have a 0.3 mb block size, the block size follows an algorithm and operates on a sliding scale. There is no effective minimum or maximum monero block size.
Monero's privacy is a double edged sword. It allows exchanges to routinely rehypothecate it / print it for free.
The point of Bitcoin is **total separation of state and money**, individual sovereignty, the emancipation of humanity. Transparency is critical to this, the way to deal with psychopaths is to shine a bright light on them.
The point is to force governments into an even playing field like any other organization in the free market, it begins with the axiom of resistance - the intention of Bitcoin is not to provide a way for us to not hide from governments like rats and cockaroaches.
Privacy is not an absolute good or bad thing, it's a tradeoff. Monero level privacy is designed for a world where we have accepted that we cannot overthrow tyrannical powers.
Under a Bitcoin standard, transactions are not private because that would give corrupt tyrannical powers somewhere to hide and bankers something to rehypothecate. Psudonymous transactions are a tradeoff that under a Bitcoin standard benefits the individual more than it benefits large groups with pooled resources.
The "final boss" of a consensus layer attack is to dominate the hashpower and mine empty blocks to make the network useless. If governments feel threatened by monero, it's multiple orders of magnitude cheaper for them to kill it with this attack than it is to kill Bitcoin.
Reality meets hypothetical.
Monero supply is scarcer than Bitcoin *right now* (and for the next few decades).
Bitcoin is diluting supply at a higher rate than Monero *right now*. Dump it years down the road if you wish - if inflation lower than gold scares you.
You're wrong. Monero's blocksize limit is 0.3 MB *right now* (you bring up another hypothetical) without significant and sustained demand long term it cannot grow beyond this. Reality.
Agree with the privacy trade off of opaque auditability.
Do NOT agree that it offers any unique rehypothecation opportunity from exchanges. Rehypothecation happens all the time even with Bitcoin. Look at this last cycle.
An exploited inflation bug would be equally catastrophic once it happened to either Bitcoin or Monero. Attackers have the advantage. There is no good solution to fix an exploited inflation bug without hurting other users on either Bitcoin or Monero.
The good samaritan will of one anon was all that stood between an Bitcoin and an exploitated supply. All the transparency in the world couldn't have stopped them if they decided otherwise: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice/
Bitcoin is easier to defend, but harder to deploy honest hashpower against a successful attack. (limit supply ASICs)
Monero is harder to defend, but easier to deploy honest hashpower against a succesful attack. (ubiquitous CPUs)
Transparency is not an absolute good or bad thing either, it's a tradeoff. Just like privacy. The state wants to wield transparency against you, to force you into a panopticon, and themself to be private and unaccountable.
The only equalizer the average person has against the state is privacy and anonymity. You cannot have freedom without privacy. You think corrupt state regimes will play by the rules like good little boys and use Bitcoin for their shady deeds so you can "shine a light on them" on them?
You are sleeping. Utopia pipe dream.
I've read every line in monero's codebase multiple times and worked on many parts of it at various points in it's history since the original fork from bytecoin, and I've told you why you are deeply and fundamentally wrong.
If you really believe the metrics you are touting are 1) accurate, 2) relevant, and 3) fundamental to monero's value, then fork it and shift them even further in that direction. When no one uses it, you'll be on track to discovering precisely how you're putting the cart before the 🐴.
Good for you. You're stranger to me. Argument from authority? I am definitely hesitant to take you seriously now 😂
You addressed not a single rebuttal I brought up. You are now telling me: "bro you are wrong trust me I'm an expert"
Tell the Free Markets (AKA Darknet Markets), Bitcoin's birthplace, that no one uses Monero. The true test with REAL skin in the game.
Close your eyes and plug your ears to Bitcoin's privacy and real world fungibility problems.
You never addressed the fact, the constantly hardforking shirtcoin has only temporary privacy while it isn't an absolute digital scarcity.
Sell your #Bitcoin already, please 🤙💜
You never addressed the fact, the constantly hardforking shitcoin (your sentiment not mine) LN has shitty privacy right now ON TOP OF potentially risking "temporary" privacy as well (government, IRS, chainalysis can easily save that data to break in the future). Worse all around.
Monero supply is unlimited, there's hard forks every six months, it's more unsecure and mediocre to provide any meaningful privacy improvements.
But the only question really is, why would anybody store their wealth on something less secure and rely on weaker assurances? 🤔
Six month hardforks is an exaggeration. Necessary hardforks to improve privacy and efficiency. No contentious hardforks because Monero users value protocol improvements. Unlike 2017 Bitcoin blocksize wars and segwit half measure. Couldn't even avoid userbase splits even without hardforks. Meanwhile Bitcoin still has zero default privacy and coinjoins are weak obfuscation.
Monero has strong default privacy, real world fungibility, and magnitudes cheaper txs fees than Bitcoin. Monero is a better p2p digital cash. Bitcoin can excel in it's SoV niche.
You're going to have to backup "mediocre to provide any meaningful privacy improvements" comment while Bitcoin transaction graph and amounts are completely open.
Monero:
Maybe Alice sent $[?] to [?]
Bitcoin:
Alice definitely sent $X to Bob
No one is forcing you to store your wealth in it... You can't walk and chew gum?
#Bitcoin LN:
Maybe Alice sent $[?] to [?]
The 'necessary' hardforks your shirtcoin that offers a temporary privacy are always decided at the top, kicking out all users that disagree with them. Congrats 🤙💜
#Real Bitcoin LN:
Maybe Alice sent $X to Bob
Your reciever privacy blows and amounts can be discovered. And all criticisms of "temporary privacy" also apply to LN as anyone can be collecting that data to break in the future as well:
"We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability."
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf
Your hardforks also apply to LN. You kick out all users that disagree. Congrats on the cognitive dissonance 🤙
But isn't it that we have two, distinct, very different use cases here?
One is a long term store of value. Cold storage. Significant percentage of one's savings. Protection from inflation.
On this one, I think Bitcoin clearly wins vs Monero.
Scarcity. Network effect. Market cap. Adoption level.
The other use case, in my view, is a use for daily transactions. Hot wallets. Frequent payments. Fees matter. Speed matters. Privacy matters.
For this, we probably need to compare Monero with Lightning.
On this one, I think the verdict is less evident. I can imagine a scenario where I convert my Bitcoin, small amounts, to Monero, using some non-kyc exchange and using Monero for some transaction where privacy is very important for me, eg to buy a VPN , where I want to make sure the vendor cannot identify me. Does that make sense?
But yes, perhaps equally well or better, I could use Bitcoin for this, with coin joins and lightning, to achieve privacy and speed and low fees. Without a need to convert to a different cryptocurrency...
I think time will tell which one becomes more popular. Today both options are complicated.
My heart is closer to Bitcoin. For sure as a digital gold, probably also for day to day transactions.
One more scenario is also possible. Neither Bitcoin nor Monero becomes widely adopted for a daily use, in our lifetime, and so it will only be a long term store of value, treasury reserve asset.
For this use case, I definitely bet on Bitcoin.
Agree with you. Just different use cases. Bitcoin or Monero can't do it all. Spread focus too thin between many things and you'll suck at everything.
I partially disagree with comparing Monero to Lightning. You're comparing an L1 to an L2 instead of another L1. And with that comes many downsides to Lightning (requires active node to secure your funds, less secure, requires funding channels to use, centralized hubs, only the illusin of final settlement, not truly p2p, etc, etc)
All without ever achieving solid privacy in the first place. Reciever privacy is bad and amounts can be derived by a passive adversary. Sender privacy is ok.
In a high fee environment, Lightning isn't that cheap, and unexpected forced closed channels make paying high on chain fees unavoidable. npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v
Yes, good point, too. Thanks for sharing. Indeed I compared L1 with L2 and for sure lightning has drawbacks... Good news is, I think it will continue getting better over time.
I think some things can improve to a certain extent, but others are just unavoidable trade offs based off the nature of lightning network itself.
