Next big "blocksize war" type of fight in Bitcoin land won't be over scaling, covenants, drivechains or LN.
It will be over privacy. The wheels are in motion and there is a clear split between regulation-good-we-need-ETF-for-NGU maxis and bitcoiners who want freedom internet fungible cash they can easily hold and use without ANY thirdparty that can censor them or compromise their financial privacy.
Followed #plebchain
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pretty sure this is an unavoidable period on the path to a bitcoin standard
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That’s gonna be a tough one. The narrative will be : „we won’t censor bitcoin for you to own, as long as it is with an ETF“
I am just curious if this will be the end boss or if there is another one waiting behind the curtain
I’m more worried about the mandatory neuralink if you want to be able to use the internet or go anywhere future that my grandkids will inherit if fiat daddy Elon gets his way.
We always knew this battle for privacy was coming. It was inevitable. It’s on the individual to be ready and capable of telling these ppl to fuck off.
Appreciate all the devs that are and have been building freedom tech 🙏🏼
This fight has been on the horizon. Can’t get soft now.
Yep this is why I've always maintained that Michael Saylor is the enemy
#Bitcoin is for everyone, we can't force nor stop ETF. All we can do is to educate on self custody and privacy.
We can't dictate what fiat gates can or cannot do, that's their job. If they want to censor, they will. It doesn't mean they can censor Bitcoin
> It doesn't mean they can censor Bitcoin
Except it literally does. Fungibility affects censorship resistance.
Bitcoin is fungible, read a definition before using big words. Go ahead and explain how exactly is somebody censoring my #Bitcoin transactions on LN?
Try convince drug dealers, darknet markets, terrorists and political dissidents to use LN by saying it makes it "fungible" and they will laugh in your face.
That's what I expected. You won't read the definition; you can't explain it at all.
LN is not private. You are comparing apples to oranges.
and if BTC fungible, why does the mempool keep getting clogged with ordinals?
That's not an explanation, just a made up statement of a shitcoin shill.
When used properly, #Bitcoin #LN is for the sender 100% private. You know that already.
If cash is fungible, tell me why there are serial numbers on the bills. Again, before using big words, read the definition first 🤙💜
"for the sender" and "when used properly" is doing all the work in that post.
and you're still not private from your routing node.
not to mention the exploit that was just published.
fact is, LN has not been tested in an adversarial environment yet.
you're the shill who can't think critically about the tools you use.
this is just stock "my node doesnt discriminate therefore its fungible" maxi cope
Don't put words into my mouth, shirtcoin shill.
I just said if I use #Bitcoin LN correctly, my sent txs are private. Your cope with this statement is unbelievable.
You used three notes, hundreds of words, yet did not explain what I've asked for.
Can you link to the "exploit"?
Centralized LSP user asserts his transactions are uncensorable
and in other retarded takes
https://tftc.io/lightning-bugs-and-regulatory-attacks-on-bitcoin/
lol
"can you link the exploit?"
anybody with a brain knows LN hasn't been stress tested yet
So you still can't explain how you can censor my LN transaction, can't link to the "exploit" you mentioned. Like the true shirtcoin shill you are. Keep attacking #Bitcoin like a little retard, keep helping the fiat side. I honestly don't care. Your shirtcoin with a temporary privacy feature won't be the new #Bitcoin anyway.
You're correct, everybody with a brain knows the #LightningNetwork is still being developed and it's far from the final product. If there's a bug, it'll get fixed. Now go ahead and read about the upcoming hardfork your leaders decided to set for you. Goodbye shill 🤙💜
The only questions that are worth answering in the privacy discussion: does the proposed BIP increase the network decentralization? And does the BIP increase network security?
These are the only two things that matter when talking about any changes to L1 development.
I disagree. Over the past years, we have seen people in the bitcoin sphere become more and mroe confortable with custodians, thirdparties and "regulatory clarity and compliance".
That is besides the possible privacy improvements on the base layer.
The complacency and degeneracy of cypherpunk values is well worth discussing.
Just as long as the "privacy" discussion isn't a veiled scalability discussion. Remember your block chain trilemma.
I don't believe we need a consensus activation chain split risking war for this though. We just need someone to pick up teleports where Chris Belcher left off
Bitcoin will do the ETF thing and by that will marginalize cypherpunks.
There is no way back.
Monero will take care of the freedom and cypherpunk ethos.
Looking forward to the Bitcoin privacy forks that will come out of this - people with etf "coins" are fucked.
surely the path forward is making coinjoin/payJoin so good that everyone is forced to use them!
just like Uber was too quick with their customer adoption for the taxi cabals to kill it off, we need payJoin to be the default option for all transactions.
If its memory (and therefore fee) efficient to have 1 transaction with 50 inputs and 100 outputs (compared to 50 transactions of 1in-2out each), then let's enable PSBT and collaborative transactions as the default on every wallet.
users will need to opt out, and pay more for doing so
Why not just use Monero then? You can still save in Bitcoin if you deem it a better store of value.
I like Monero
-decent privacy by default
-(i believe) favours hashing from home miners (Vs huge data centers)
but its not gonna make it
-tail emissions
-only bitcoin can really stand to fight against the fiat standard and all of its defenders.
-bitcoin has a crazy starting advantage over anything (security/decentralisation/adoption)
-look at what's being built on bitcoin Vs crypto
--liquid
--lightning
--nostr
--btcpayserver/nodeless/zaprite/Oshi/IbexPay
--coinjoyn/payJoin
--i am sure I missed a few
I think it's easier and better to just make collaborative transactions (joining via PSBTs) instead of giving up all the bitcoin advantage to go to Monero
what you described as built on BTC is either redundant compared to Monero but with less privacy like Liquid or CoinJoins or attackable like LN or coin agnostic like nostr or BTCpayserver, SeedSigner, bisq,....
Not going to make it as what? What are your goals/needs?
Monero: Strong default privacy, real world fungibility, cheap tx fees. Superior MoE especially considering Bitcoin's high fee future. It's a better p2p digital *cash*
If Bitcoiners want to claim BTC has properties that make it a better p2p digital SoV/gold/commodity that is a different argument. But really, any future prediction of price is all speculation. You can control supply. You can never control the fickle winds of demand...
-There are only two options for L1s. Tx fees(worse for MoE) or Tail emission(worse for SoV). Tail emission makes the most sense for a digital cash. Let's put this into perspective. Gold has been the best SoV over several Millenia. Monero has less inflation than Gold. If this scares you don't use Monero to save - use it like cash. Save in Bitcoin.
-This is just a claim with nothing to back it. I can easily say Monero mining is more decentralized and discrete (ubiquity of CPUs) and has a similar number of nodes to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is also missing an important aspect of censorship resistance: privacy.
-And Monero "has a crazy starting advantage" over any Bitcoin privacy L2+ that has to start adoption from scratch. Look at lightning and liquid for examples. Almost no adoption vs on chain Bitcoin or Monero.
-Liquid:
>Permissioned network
>Only hides amounts. Transaction graph visible - senders and receivers completely exposed
>IP visible by default
-Lightning:
>illusion of final settlement (nothing is truly settled until on chain)
>relies on large middlemen nodes for succesful routing and cheapest fees
>need capacity to recieve to begin with
>can't send modestly large amounts
>both parties must be online at time of transaction to transact
>can be rugged if your node isn't active (or trust to do it)
>bad receiver privacy and hidden balances can be discovered by a passive adversary
>can be force closed onto the base chain against your will
>ability to grief honest users with zero cost
>worst of all it isn't a real solution for scaling for all the things you downsides you take on
>Recent critical security issues bring even more major doubt and concern:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html
-Even though Bitcoiners built Nostr, the protocol is agnostic and has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
-You can use Monero with BTCpayserver too
-Coinjoins/payjoins are weak obfuscation vs Monero's encrypted amounts and addresses. Nothing is hidden. Range of amounts and connections are all still visible and can be unraveled using offchain data or use mistakes. Privacy also degrades over time.
>Opt-in (You stick out and smaller anon set)
>Makes Bitcoin nonfungible
>Liquidity is split between several protocols
>Privacy degrades over time
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures-vs-coinjoin
- You missed Ecash. The only real contender for Monero's privacy. Only problem is it is custodial and mints can print IOUs that are unbacked by the base layer: Bitcoin.
Not only is it a slim chance these L2/3s overtake Monero's network effects. None of them are full replacements for Monero.
It's just a time preference problem. Always has been. Multi generationally institutions will win, people just want their cash out after all they arnt going to out live the institutions. They are just voting their interests, as they were taught to to do. You'all have been doing a wonderful job building out the new infrastructure, I'm sure the new digital currency guys will thank you.
Funny how things turn out sooner than expected
don’t think giacomo is that typa guy, samourai’s ppl in particular are just annoying, drama-stirring fuckwits
there’s not much to fight over in bitcoin in terms of privacy. anything that relates to the base chain that’s worth fighting over would have to be a huge change being implemented
wasn't here for the blocksize wars, will be here for the white/black bitcoin wars
