Nostr Web Client

All this is way above my pay grade but still is hilariously to watch Monero bros to come with terms with reality 😆

What are you talking about, moron?

Reply with an actual screenshot of what you're talking about

I guess you haven’t come in terms with reality. Oh well. 🤷‍♂️

This is not a screenshot

You're the one who can't comprehend the reality that lightning sucks

Stop projecting

Lightning works perfectly for me.

Didn't ask

Ok bro, calm down.

Again, what are you talking about?

Me?

Ok so, what was whoever I was replying to talking about, and why do you seem confused about who I meant?

theres nothing even slightly controversial in this thread.

except his insistence that the sender knowing the destination of their payment is "tracing"

Monkey Pox Denier 7mo ago

That's really an issue imho.

So a reciever has to reveal his adress to make the payment work?

Not really, or? I mean, I am not into monero but I always thought it's anonymous

Monero uses "stealth addresses" where the address you reveal to get paid should be pretty useless to attackers

that is how blockchains work.

the sender doesn't know anything about the address they get, prior amounts received or whether its been used before, etc

but someone with access to the sending wallet knows coin was sent to that address.

Monkey Pox Denier 7mo ago

That's why you don't achieve anonymity on a blockchain, but on a second layer like lnd.

There are certainly advantages to using an L2

there are also disadvantages

The sender automatically generates a one-time stealth address from the receivers public address, that only they both know, that is used once to receive for that transaction and never used again. No third party knows the address if they're simply looking at the blockchain and the recievers public address, and the sender doesn't know what happens with it after either.

Arándano 7mo ago

Where I can learn more about trampoling routing and decoy pubkey?

nostr:nprofile1qqs0nt9skq6vfsgh06v979rrnuchau87mmnk2lqxpv2xaeusqfp30mqpz3mhxue69uhkzmr8duh82arcduhx7mn99uq3wamnwvaz7tmzd96xxmmfdejhytnnda3kjctv9uqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshsvkk925 do you have this in any of your nice blogs?

There are several resources:

lnproxy.org/about.html <-- this is probably the easiest to understand and use

https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/proposals/route-blinding.md <-- this provides a more technical description

Several wallets support this privacy technique. Zeus wallet has a toggle in Settings to turn on "route blinding" (that's what they call it, it goes by several names). Phoenix Wallet also supports it if you use bolt12, because route blinding is used by default in bolt12 offers. But bolt11 can do it too, it's just not done by default in any bolt11 wallet that I know of.

Arándano 7mo ago

https://cdn.nostrcheck.me/dde1dd228d19983b35f01fc2a510601fc1dc2538143424fc0aaad845f441a33a/dd3df333a39d3802ec8fe4225564b73db8379023bd37021f4213c62bc2d3b554.webp Thanks master, I believe you mean "blinded paths" in Zeus invoices settings, rigth?

- https://darth-coin.github.io/wallets/lightning-cleaning-machine-en.html

Correct

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 7mo ago

Here some guides:

- https://darth-coin.github.io/wallets/bitcoin-and-privacy-en.html

- https://darth-coin.github.io/nodes/public-private-node-liquidity-scenario-en.html

xenonsky 7mo ago

I like this thread. will check out github. but I do not really have the whatever it takes to open pull requests. or at least what I am trying to do is get support up for CalyxOS for the Pixel 4a. nostr:nprofile1qqs2vrneurk665gq6a2rke572y7mc8ppwr5wnd60mw8fwxharc8xsycpzemhxue69uhkzat5dqhxummnw3erztnrdakj7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctc82ymh5 the 9a is not nessescairy yet. newPipe works just fine which is my favorite app, but the rest is sadly lagging and stuff. I think Graphene is interesting. I find nostr:nprofile1qqsdk7zldv5pmd70gdm8akuzhvwcyxlzyggqayfkm8stzfzh22pyccgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0wd68ytnsw43qt5vn54 I think that CalyxOS is best. meanwhile I try to read that: https://stacker.news/items/992675

nostr:nevent1qqsgm0a46c0375nxvqe8esjehatpm8rhj2d0zkdg7slcjysrgvmjgnszyqsc8628tpyp6rcjf77e83tve2j9ulj5tnht34fgfrucy5l5j7uh2kg8av0

nostr:nevent1qqsqz6v9qnfm0nnyxkhupm59grckumdfpgl4rtgxmvn3e4ed0tlyaaqzyqsc8628tpyp6rcjf77e83tve2j9ulj5tnht34fgfrucy5l5j7uh2ccaauc

Sad to see nostr devs can be this mentally handicapped

Freezy 7mo ago

Sir, what’s a good but not super complicated way of receiving lightning payments anonymously?

(1) Run your own lightning node, I recommend electrum

(2) When you make an invoice, pass it through lnproxy: https://lnproxy.org

(3) Encourage more folks to run an lnproxy server so that your anonymity set grows

(4) On that note, this doesn't help *your* privacy but you can help other people get better privacy by running an lnproxy server. Learn more here: https://github.com/lnproxy/lnproxy

The hermit from 1986 7mo ago

Reminded me of this meme hehe

It sounds like monero still offers better privacy by default?

But it’s good to know that lightning offers this high level of privacy, assuming one has the technical expertise and resources to achieve that.

Appreciate your perspective as always.

LN proxy is a great tool, but it's like a VPN. You're just shifting your trust from whoever is sending you the payment to the proxy that now has some insight into your transaction (they previously had none).

Ah, so that's why nostr:npub1yxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96s8c399s was lying to people

Me and nostr:npub1lxzaxzge0jq9u9cecucctdt5lslwgp7hcxmp2l0wn8r2ecjenwasu6svxa were both confused trying to figure out why this guy would waste social capital to shill lightning like that

Wasn't trying to be contentious 😂

Let me try and properly articulate this...

Putting aside how one defines "tracing" for now to get to the actual root of the argument...I think Super Testnet is correct about LN receiver privacy being better within a very narrow set of conditions.

I trust Super Testnet and a small subset to use Lightning in the very private way he usually describes, but in it's current state I don't think most Lightning users attain the same level of receiver privacy.

I cannot imagine when anyone ever needs to be able to send money without knowing if it reaches the correct place in the network

What am I missing here?

When you make a payment the hash of the preimage would match the payment hash in the invoice. The receiver has to reveal it to the sender in order for the payment to go through. The sender uses that to cryptographically prove they paid.

I would be more interested in comparing an eventual Monero L2 to a Bitcoin L2. In terms of privacy, building an L2 on an encrypted blockchain is probably the best privacy you can get in the cryptocurrency world. I think Shielded CSV or a folding scheme on Monero (which I've seen discussed in Monero here and there) would be the most feasible and private L2 possible afaict. Crazy times ahead for privacy tech 🤙

L2 just sabotages the underlying coin if it's anything like lightning

The only L2 worth having would be one based on a P2P blockchain like the underlying asset

Lightning is only one of many different kinds of L2s. No one is forced to use them and they come with different advantages.

Ironically Lightning would probably work better on Monero in a few ways because of it's dynamic blocksize and would be more economically feasible to unilaterally exit because of it's very cheap fees. Although I'm more interested in the other L2s I mentioned.

Weird, touch screen glitched and sent 2 reactions other than 🤙 before I could react with 🤙

Anyway, I doubt any L2 based on anything but a similar blockchain would work, and Monero doesn't need an L2 currently since transactions are already fast enough and cheap enough and the main obstacle to Monero's privacy/security right now is the prevalence of devices having backdoors

One nice thing about vpns, and lnproxy, is that they stack. You can put multiple vpns in your network stack, so that first your traffic goes to VPN A and then the VPN B and then to your destination. You can do the same with your money: first it goes to proxy A, then proxy B, then your destination. No proxy knows if the node they forward your money to is the real destination or just another proxy.

That's true, but idk if lnproxy does that alone does it?

I'm not sure what you mean by "alone." I think you mean something like, "does lnproxy use 2 proxies automatically like how obscuravpn automatically passes your traffic through 2 vpns." If that is what you mean, no. But there are 2 different proxies running lnproxy's software and you can pick which one you want to use on their website, otherwise it selects onr at random. So nothing stops you from wrapping your invoice twice, once via each proxy. Moreover, anyone who starts running the lnproxy software can do a pull request to get added to their list, and the more people who do so, the better for user privacy.

Yea thats what I meant. Oh, nice, I didn't realise lnproxy website had different lnproxy hosts that it randomly selects. So are you saying that if I wrap an invoice, refresh the website, and wrap the wrapped invoice again, it should be going through 2 proxies?

and change the relay*

Just tried it right now, it works, neat

first

the sender of a payment *knowing the destination* isn't "tracing the payment"

second

picking on the mentally ill like Digit isnt particularly convincing. its just kinda mean.

You did the same thing to me when I had even fewer followers

Literally the exact same thing, trolling me and gaslighting me with dumbass lies, splitting the thread with quote posts etc

You couldn't handle admitting things don't need to be priced in dollars, remember?

Im still waiting for you to show your magical formula of setting prices that never touches USD

seek help

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqamkcvk5k8g730e2j6atadp6mxk7z4aaxc7cnwrlkclx79z4tzygqythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnwdaehgu3wvfskuep0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uqzqs9wdkqxn5tg7llz7vvtm324eq3ul4qj0usxslqgzpwn7e4tmn43xc697l

No, you're still lying, trolling, and gaslighting, but you're not and have not been waiting for my math since I fucking linked you a CSV of my math very early in that thread which you just kept spamming and trolling me about then too

archive.org/download/btc-doge-xmr-10y/crypto%20comparison%20graphic/crypto%20comparison%20data.csv

Weird, my csv file seems incomplete when I look at the link now. Should have more years at least

But still shows the general concept of calculating things in a basis other than dollars

there is no link to a CSV in that thread.

there is a screenshot of a spreadsheet that doesn't have the information you claim it does.

There's a link to a post with an archive.org csv download link in that thread, or the download link itself, I don't remember

But I'm pretty sure I didn't take a screenshot of the spreadsheet? Idk

I will now that you suggested it -

It seems incomplete but still shows the general concept nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqamkcvk5k8g730e2j6atadp6mxk7z4aaxc7cnwrlkclx79z4tzygqy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3wamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwdehhxarj9e3xzmny9uqzqtul8acp4zzhqcgfm5ny7yxugkjj4y7vt5nyurnf7qzje35arqjw8jgpgr

that is just the USD price of assets divided by the USD price of gold.

only an idiot would think that a USD price divided by another USD price is not USD denominated.

*points at screenshot again*

youre autism doesnt change facts

> [that] isn't "tracing the payment

Yes it is, it is the first step in very many traces. Everyone knows this, e.g. here's a coinbase article explaining how dust attacks are part of many traces -- and they rely on the sender's ability to know the destination of their funds. Lightning, of course, fixes this.

cope harder.

the sending knowing the address of the recipient is not "tracing"

there is zero difference here to sending a letter to an address provided.

nobody calls that "tracing"

everybody knows this.

List of people who say that tracing includes sending money to a pubkey or address and watching it to see what happens next:

- Chainalysis

- Coinbase

- Gemini

- Wikipedia

- Bitcoin wiki

Many sources: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22dust+attack%22+or+%22dusting+attack%22+%22to+trace%22+or+%22tracing%22+%22bitcoin%22

List of people in denial:

- Kanzan

the "watching to see what happens next" is doing all the work in that sentence.

sending an output and knowing where it goes is not tracing.

you can do the first half (send dust!) but not the second (know what happens next!)

therefore it is not tracing.

everybody knows this. its pathetic you continue to expend social capital trying to redefine words just to FUD a little bit more.

Sure, watching to see what happens next is *critical* but sending the money in the first place is *also* a critical part of the trace, unless you can find someone who already sent money to your target. You need a pubkey to watch -- where so you get it? Either by paying it yourself or finding someone who already did. You don't get to exclude that critical step in almost every trace just because you find it inconvenient that monero makes it easy.

> you can do the first half (send dust!) but not the second (know what happens next!) therefore it is not tracing

First half of what? If your answer is "first half of tracing" then QED, sending money and identifying the destination is part of tracing. And that is what your answer "should" be because dust attacks are a perfect example of tracing -- a textbook example. And they completely rely on what you call "the first half." It's a critical step of practically every trace except ones where someone you're working with already sent the target some money.