Subnostr

Why do I insist so much on Bitcoin markets for exchanging goods and services? It's very simple.

If we only use Bitcoin for Hodl (Saylor narrative) and goods and services are not offered for Bitcoin, you are forced to sell Bitcoin for Fiat to obtain goods and services, favoring the fiat system and having to pay taxes on the sale of Bitcoin. In this case, Bitcoin is harmless to the state; it is no more dangerous than a stock.

But if you can buy goods and services with Bitcoin, this changes everything. You don't use Fiat, you take volume away from the Fiat system, and the state has no control over what you have purchased because there are no bank accounts, making it extremely difficult to collect taxes.

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Discussion

Oshi (推し) 5d ago

Here here 🤞🏼

whit 4d ago

In my best Whig party 🎈 voice !!!

DeCentHuman 5d ago

Saylor is a Fiat maxi.

We need a BIP to de Saylor his stack..

SoapMiner 5d ago

Using their system gives it life. Extricating yourself from it deprives it of such.

Des Imoto マキシ 5d ago

Like I said yesterday. For that to happen we need to solve the shipping process. We can advertise and buy things on #nostr now. P2P. Pay with zaps. Anonymously. But how do we get it shipped and delivered without doxing names and addresses? Once that is solved people will feel comfortable.

sati 5d ago

💯

SATOSHI TAMIZHAN 5d ago

Austrian economics. Enjoy satoshis wisdom ♥️🚀

Rycarl Jorhane 5d ago

Derric Verayo 5d ago

🧐🍷

nostr:nevent1qqs2wx59g4fzuegdauhdtglefdeecrkx2p32rlkx0deam889kae709sv2znk5

Achilles 4d ago

It always starts with store of value narrative…until it becomes medium of exchange narrative…until it becomes unit of account

Cyph3rp9nk 4d ago

I used to be a Gold Bug, so I know very well how gold works, and you will never see me discredit it as some Bitcoiners do, but at this point, I will sound a warning to Gold Bugs who discredit Bitcoin.

The reason I went from being a Gold Bug to a toxic maximalist Bitcoin enthusiast is that I can't buy goods and services with gold, as I explain in the attached note, and for this reason, gold and silver are useless in fighting the system; they don't change anything.

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpl8hpfzul2qha25p8wd63gm46ufax95lfgnl8h9v84y3zt0k05m7qqs2wx59g4fzuegdauhdtglefdeecrkx2p32rlkx0deam889kae709s7s65p0

Soap21 4d ago

100% why I started making soaps as quality goods for Bitcoin only!

Samuel Manzanera 4d ago

Bitcoin Hodl is just an investment vehicle, Bitcoin spending is the REAL disruption.

choke_this 4d ago

You don't have to sell bitcoin, you can borrow against it, no taxes...and you are shorting fiat.

Some things are so captured by regulation, it is extremely difficult to buy with bitcoin.

HODLing bitcoin IS ALSO BEING USED AS A MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE. It is a trade from your present self to your future self. The "medium of exchange" vs "store of value" argument is a false one. They are the same thing.

Bitcoin cannot become a medium of exchange without being the majority of cash balances...the majority of wealth has to be bitcoin before it becomes money in the sense that it is used more transactionally.

Cyph3rp9nk 4d ago

No thanks, I don't do anything that promotes the debt system and fiat currency.

Hanshan 4d ago

You honestly think mortgaging your BTC to spend fiat is in the greater interest of human freedom?

choke_this 4d ago

versus selling my bitcoin for fiat to pay:

electric bill

plane tickets

gas bill

all the shit that YOU CANNOT USE BITCOIN TO BUY

sorry I don't want to live like Uncle Ted in a shack in the woods with my wife and kids

so yes, I borrow against bitcoin when the only alternative is to sell it and pay taxes

Hanshan 4d ago

that makes sense.

If you are into KYCed Bitcoin anyway.

I'd rather live in a shack in the woods than ask the state for permission to transact tbh.

choke_this 4d ago

tell me how you do it, I am here to learn...you operating 100% bitcoin to bitcoin?

Hanshan 4d ago

of course not.

I just deal with the friction of exchanging directly p2p and don't pay taxes.

choke_this 4d ago

thats the thing...I have a family that requires school, a house, utilities...I can't just trade bitcoin with some other bitcoiner for diesel fuel and a generator and live in a shack in panama while vibe coding and blogging. I'm glad people do, but thats not how I want to live.

Hanshan 4d ago

it's not a budgeting problem? everybody has fiat expenses.

I just hold cash rather than deal with the friction of moving back and forth.

choke_this 4d ago

Oh you hold cash. I eliminated the friction of holding cash by "mortgaging my bitcoin"

Hanshan 4d ago

unless you earn in BTC, this makes zero sense.

choke_this 4d ago

if you need to maintain a cash balamce of $20k you are losing $2k/yr to inflation, and missing 50%/yr in bitcoin...so the opportunity cost of having a cash balance is $12k/yr or more depending on your expenses

Hanshan 4d ago

iow

you want to speculate on fiat-denominated purchasing power appreciation to the maximum extent possible and are fine with getting permission from the government to do that.

and Bitcoin is down vs USD over the last year so....

I prefer keeping sovereign control over my stack and having a lower fiat-denominated "net worth"

choke_this 4d ago

there is no speculation: any fiat you have is depreciating

having a govt slave token balance decreases your net worth over time, in bitcoin

I don't sell bitcoin to get the worthless money: I borrow the worthless money and keep the bitcoin

That is the whole point, to keep the bitcoin

It's just a tool. I want more bitcoin rather than less, so I use the evil system. I'm not feeding the system any more than the person who keeps a slave token balance for fiat bills.

Hanshan 4d ago

on the face of it, that's fine.

except you don't factor in that the kyced coins are cucked, permissioned and cease to function as freedom money.

normalizing using Bitcoin usage in this manner makes it just another government slave token. you're not "using the evil system," you're mortgaging your coins for more fiat purchasing power.

and I'm sorry but, you're absolutely feeding the system more than someone who simply keeps their head down and their stack private.

therefore its better (and also takes less administrative overhead) to simply have a fully sovereign private stack and use kyced fiat to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars.

choke_this 4d ago

i guess a difference of opinion...some kyc bitcoin i can borrow against works better for me than a bunch of slave tokens hyperinflating to oblivion

Artisan Regenerative Traditions 4d ago

Fedi seems like great tool to circumvent this

Hanshan 4d ago

you mean lend your Bitcoin to the mint for Bitcoin-backed tokens?

Artisan Regenerative Traditions 4d ago

As a permission-less private way to transact with a local community. Isn’t this the goal of both bitcoin and monero?

Hanshan 4d ago

I mean

"permission less?"

fedi tokens are a shitcoin.

but if you trust the community bank, it's probably fine right?

Artisan Regenerative Traditions 4d ago

I think the whole point is yes you do trust the community bank. Shouldn’t you trust your local community? I know it’s common to be paranoid here about everything but in reality trust is fundamental. If you don’t have enough people you trust locally then you can always create a mint from anonymous parties and put a small amount of spending money in that is now completely private. Seems like a good use case no?

Hanshan 3d ago

I'm just not sure what problem it solves exactly. It does FEEL like there's a use case here, far in the future when people have solved online reputation maybe.

But its not particularly useful if the user has to vet the mint themselves is it?

I agree that trust is the fundamental question here. Fedi *requires trust but doesn't do anything to solve the problem.

How can I confirm the mint is actually being run by separate entities and not one guy who spun up several different keys?

Artisan Regenerative Traditions 3d ago

That’s a valid concern and if you didn’t know the guardians personally then it is a risk. I see it more as a solution for local circular economies that scales easier and with less friction than trying to fully orange pill your neighbors since we can all agree not everyone is gonna choose self custody but still should have access and ability to use freedom tech.

Hanshan 3d ago

makes sense.

if we're talking bitcoin-backed Chaumian ecash adoption long term,

I think we need to first normalize private key self-custody and control.

Hanshan 3d ago

even if it's an ecash shitcoin, people are spending by signing a transaction. personal key control is freedom.

Artisan Regenerative Traditions 3d ago

Agreed

choke_this 4d ago

the other advantage of borrowing is it increases the amount of BTC you own...if you sell off your stack to pay expenses...its gone

lets say you have a major expense...you need a new propeller and its $24,000.

option A: you sell .25 BTC, and now you have less

option B: borrow $100k, buy the prop, AND buy .75 BTC

got the thing you needed, have more btc, and can pay off the loan with a new one, ( using less btc when its due.)..rinse and repeat

Hanshan 4d ago

KYCed Bitcoin is a shitcoin my friend.

good luck with your trade!

choke_this 4d ago

no need to kyc everything, just the corn you are borrowing against

“Hello_it’s_Tiger” 4d ago

🐅

McCoy 4d ago

I will spend fiat trash and hoard bitcoin until either: 1.) the producers of really good stuff refuse fiat or 2.) my employer pays me in bitcoin.

I am able to hoard bitcoin (for my future self) becuase I work my ass-off to AVOID force selling of BTC.

This is the path during the transition phase. SOV, then MOE. MOE era kicks off when you cant buy anything with fiat: it is up to the producers

Polymathematician 4d ago

https://primal.net/e/nevent1qqsgmw4jg6akjwrz3agvemwvgsqerdre4e4rxekp9mvhez86njl342clsddnx

HODLÉire🇮🇪 4d ago

I try to spend it as much as possible. It's the real win. Would love to just spend and earn it as my main money

Rand 4d ago

hIT/\/ a p2pn meatmeet/\/ /\/ a/\/ area whERE thERE is rObust/\/Ess wITh trade \/4\/ 🧡 *\*ya/*****

Rand 4d ago