Bitcoin was hijacked long time ago not now š
The move is just unfolding now clearly as water š
Bitcoin Cash was the fork made when Bitcoin was hijacked š
Discussion
I am going to go against my better judgement and attempt to engage with you in what I hope will be a fruitful discussion.
I've already written an article about Bitcoin Cash, it is here:
https://habla.news/u/mhardcastle@nostrplebs.com/1733908437101
The part that discusses BCH starts at this paragraph:
"Rogerās case is also being used as a weapon of fear."
If you believe my analysis is wrong, I would be open to a genuine debate. If you want to sling slogans and meaningless rhetoric, I will not respond.
I suggest you spend time formulating a reply if you wish to win the intellectual argument.
My personality type is INTP, which means I do not have a hubris and do not hold onto bad ideas if there is a defined better option. You have a chance to change my mind.
I have read Rogers' book "Hijacking Bitcoin", he suffers from anger issues, which means it is nearly impossible to dissect valid argument from uncontrollable hatred.
Let me start by agreeing that Bitcoin base layer is unusable as a day to day currency and that L2 Lightning is a shit show.
However, centralisation of any form allows government or corporate control of any threat to fiat.
I also agree that Bitcoin mining is dangerously centralised due to the dominance of Bitmain and the 2 largest mining pools.
All that said, I still choose Bitcoin over Bitcoin cash as it is mostly decentralised, whereas BCH is mostly centralised.
Take as long as you like to respond. I will wait.
Second most common Bitcoiner.
Iām the most common - INTJ
Weāre what people think of when they accuse Maxis of shit. Thatās us. Shitting in peopleās cornflakes because we can. 
Iāve told you already, Iām taking flowers to my grandads grave tomorrow, not brown cornflakes š
Oh look, reading this:
https://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality
It says this:
INTJs arenāt known for being warm and fuzzy. š
I like being warm and fuzzy
Iām warm and fuzzy!
When my brain isnāt engaged. When it is, Iām not..
INTP wonāt shit in the cornflakes. The P is for prevention.
The J though, INTJ, WE WILL SHIT IN CORNFLAKES.
We donāt care, thatās where we differ.
Itās the difference between a medicated autist (or equivalent) and an autist who just doesnāt GAF and will take the shit not for fun, but because the Judging element has overridden the brain and determined itās right overall.
Thatās Bitcoin Maximalism. A third of us will shit in the cornflakes because Fuck You, thatās why.
I don't think I like cornflakes anymore.
Is muesli still a thing? š
Yeah Iām happy to shit in muesli or cornflakes or weetbix or on toast or pancakes.
Rack em up. If it means making normies uncomfortable, Iām there as is the INTJ army.
Iām going on a diet š
I reckon thatās the difference between P and J.
You donāt have the stomach to do what we would do.
Would you #BBTG? 
On a serious note, I always shy away from a fight, but if a fight is forced upon me, I will do anything and everything to win and will put everything into it. Once engaged, I canāt back down and I can never loose.
At an event a few years ago, I met a girl I went to school with, I thought she was too cool to hang around with, but she told me she was too scared of me and avoided me.
I always thought I was a cute puppy, but Iāve since been told by many F&F that I can be very fearsome if engaged.
Js pick fights.
If youāre wrong you need to know - thatās how our brains work.
I got muted by hodlbod today because I resisted his āDeepSeek doesnt answer Tiananmen Squareā horseshit.
Heās a P, not a J. Someone judging him is too uncomfortable for him, he wanted to make that observation unopposed but my mind saw it and it was like a red rag to a bull - fuck him, he needs to eat shit for his nonsense and I donāt care the consequences to me, I want to impose reality on him.
INTJs are the Maxis because they donāt care about consequences. Theyāll shit in any bowl if they think it the right thing to do, even if that bowl is headed to a grave this afternoon.
INTJs are the best and worst thing to ever happen to Bitcoin. Itās catnip for us, and we become cunts once we go down the rabbithole.
To add nuance, I will initiate a fight if I see corruption or immoral actions.
Also, I tend to be more thoughtful and logical, I agree with your analysis, but I struggle to filter out the emotional and antagonistic tones.
This was the problem I had reading Rogerās book āHijacking Bitcoinā, he was so full of anger, it hid his arguments, some of which are valid.
>āTo add nuance, I will initiate a fight if I see corruption or immoral actions.ā
Thatās just another red rag to a bull for the Judgemental side. Corruption or immoral actions will be smashed.
Js donāt care about emotional and antagonistic tones; theyāll just attack them. That shit doesnt work on them.
Iām not saying weāre right, we likely arenāt as much as we think we are. Iām just describing the nuance youāre pointing to in real terms from the J side to a P.
Adding my own nuance I guess.
Interesting, thanks.
You've probably explained a lot about the types of fights I've engaged in over the years and the personality traits of the individual with whom I've fought.
It sounds like Roger Ver may well be an INTJ š
Yes when you frame J vs P like this a lot more Bitcoin arguments make sense.
The important thing to note is the Js are the ones dragging the Overton window. They are impossible to outnegotiate. They are the real autists. They donāt care what the Ps think, theyāll beat them over the head until they agree or subvert them.
Bitcoin will either fail or meet INTJ standards - the middle ground is unacceptable to Js and at 1/3 they are the minority to reckon with.
Just to add some nuance to your nuance.
Iām guessing the major fights in my life have been fought with INTJās primarily because they thought I was soft and they believed they couldnāt loose (as you suggest).
Be careful of making assumptions, those opponents were in error.
Hubris is a weakness, mine is huge, but I am self aware and mostly able to control it.
Also, I'm a passenger now with Bitcoin, but LCDs, the Internet and LoRa are all Overton windows I have moved in my time.
Thatās a lot of nuance Mike!
Itās not that INTJs didnāt think they could lose. Itās that when they pick a hill to die on youāre gonna have to go through them and kill them all (metaphorically speaking) or youāll end up at their position in the end. I donāt know how to describe that phenomenon, but itās true.
This is where most opponents go wrong. When they plant a flag itās not their first point of retreat. Thatās not how INTJs work - where they plant the flag may seem arbitrary to you but itās real to them - thatās the line and itās life or death at the line.
Hubris is not a good accusation against them.
Js are rightly or wrongly, principled AF. Theyāre not acting from hubris, they can justify their position.
Like me with Hodlbod - he muted me but I had a whole chain of logic behind my comments; he was too weak to hear it. I could be wrong, weāll never know, but Iām not just gonna let some fucktard cry bald eagle as if thatās a winning move whilst I repost and laugh at him.
Interesting, it is definitely my personal sense of morality that doesnāt allow me to back down.
Perhaps I have a little bit of J in me š
INTJ here too.
Weāre gonna inherit the earth bro š«”
It just wonāt be us, it will be our offspring or their offspring; weāre too intense to be in charge of normies
Great article and points Mike!
Satoshi Nakamotoās early communications, including emails and forum posts, clearly articulated a vision for Bitcoin as a decentralized, P2P electronic cash system. Central to this vision were principles of user sovereignty, privacy, and resistance to censorship. However, as Bitcoin has evolved, and it has strayed significantly from these foundational ideals.
One of the most pressing issues is the centralization of mining power, which undermines Bitcoin's original intent. A handful of mining pools now control a substantial portion of the network's hash rate, raising concerns about the potential for censorship and manipulation and all if them are at the mercy of benevolent regulation.
This centralization not only threatens the security of the network but also compromises its ability to function as a truly censorship resistant currency. If a small number of entities can dictate which transactions are processed, the essence of what Satoshi envisioned a decentralized and open financial system becomes increasingly tenuous.
In Satoshi's early discussions, there was a clear intent to address scalability challenges, including the potential to increase the block size to accommodate more transactions on the base layer. Satoshi recognized that as Bitcoin gained popularity, the network would need to handle a growing volume of transactions without sacrificing its core principles. In emails and forum posts, Satoshi expressed a willingness to explore solutions that would allow for greater transaction throughput while maintaining decentralization.
One notable initiative that emerged during this period was P2Pool, a decentralized mining pool designed to allow miners to work together without relying on centralized entities. P2Pool aimed to enhance decentralization by enabling miners to contribute their hashing power while maintaining control over their individual contributions. However, despite its innovative approach, P2Pool development was largely abandoned around 12 years ago. The decision to set it aside by core developers and the broader community reflects a shift in focus toward other solutions, like lighting that instead bringing decentralization does the opposite.
The abandonment of P2Pool underscores a broader challenge within the Bitcoin ecosystem, the struggle to balance innovation with the community's evolving priorities. While alternative solutions have emerged, the centralization of mining power remains a critical issue that continues to threaten the foundational principles of Bitcoin.
It is essential to reflect on Satoshi's foundational principles and the lessons learned from initiatives like P2Pool. The centralization of mining power and the ongoing debates about scalability underscore the need for a renewed commitment to user sovereignty and decentralization.
All that i mention before has solution, but who knows why core devs and big names in the community are agaisnt this improvements and are in favor of centralized solutions like Lightning and eCash.
That's why in my vision i think bitcoin was hijacked.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this perspective.
I pretty much entirely agree with your points, in fact you are putting flesh to the points I had already conceded.
May I also suggest that youāve used AI to generate your answer, AI is still early and the style of answer reflects an AI engine.
Your agreed points make no arguments beyond the ones Iāve given and no arguments supporting the āhijackingā of Bitcoin and no arguments in support of BCH.
Are you happy that we have consensus?
No i don't use AI to generate my response, i use it to translate from my native language so it be easier to me to make my points understandble, but as you wanna go by that side, it's the end of conversation to me.
Understood.
Thank you for interacting.
Have a nice day.
This is my favorite thread o dayā¦so farš¤š š«”
I usually prefer the humorous posts of my retarded digital frenz (they know who they are āļøā¦Iām afraid to name them and leave the prez ( nostr:npub1v7k63c6y2vktlqhsuupywt3yc7ykursujc34at964f9cv9s9y9csjutfk0 ) out againā¦it rankles his little legal feathersš¤š)ā¦
This thread has made great points on both sides of this argument ā¦I now feel more confused but less stupidš«”š
Bitcoin is fucked. I'm out.
What a compelling argument, youāve convinced me, Iām out too š
I don't like your face. I don't care what you do.
I know, itās dreadful isnāt isnāt it š
At least I donāt have to look at it, I feel sorry for my F&F tho, they have to put up with this curmudgeonly view whenever they are talking to me.
Have a nice day pal š«
I just went to see BCash mining stats. Looks like ViaBTC and Sbicrypto concentrate together the same % as Foundry and AntPool in BTC ācoreā.
Yes, hashrate concentration may be a big problem but BCash didnāt made any change on that specific problem.
miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoincash
PS: I don't think BCH is the solution for all the problems, i think Monero is, that's why i use Monero
Understood.
Monero definitely adopts a privacy first approach, so if you want privacy, you should use this coin. I also support the right to choose to use Monero if you wish
However, adoption is also an issue.
We are discussing the recent announcement of Tether onto the Bitcoin L1 and Lightning networks.
It has good and bad consequences, however the reality is that Bitcoin is not spendable in most scenarios today, whereas the USD is, so a tokenised dollar running on the Bitcoin network makes the use case as a currency much more compelling in the short term.
The problem, however, is that Bitcoin was supposed to replace the dollar, not facilitate it.
Only will put this fact on the table before i end defenitively the conversation with you, Monero is more used than Bitcoin, you can't find one store that accepts both that bitcoin is more used not to mention black markets..
You can see some of the Bitcoin merchants here:
Does Monero have a similar map?
They are all online.
Do you not have anything like BTCMap?
Each of those have listings/offers where you can meet in person. I know XMRBazaar is implementing a visual map like your link soon.
Only other thing I can think if is coinradar which you can filter for Monero
OK, so Aeneas claim was false.
I don't know if Monero has the same core concept, "Don't Trust, Verify"
It's a very powerful philosophy.
So, to be clear, Monero IS NOT as widely adopted as Bitcoin, not even close, nor is it widely used.
Making such claims destroys valid arguments that Monero is a privacy coin.
I support the right for Monero to exist, if people value their privacy, I support their right to use it.
But don't make false claims because it destroys the truth and support you have from people like me.
I think some research should be done about this to validate. While we can count transactions on Monero Blockchain, we wouldn't be able to validate how many users are using lightning without running a high traffic node for example, so there is a lot of speculation. Regarding making payments, there are several companies who accept both options who have expressed significantly more traffic in xmr transactions than other options.
Also the number of micro transactions on NOSTR would obfuscate data collection.
Also, if I send Bitcoin to my bank and then spend dollars with it, is this a valid transaction?
Identifying asset transfers from merchant spending would be nearly impossible.
But weāre not talking number of transactions, weāre talking merchant adoption and this is partially verifiable with BTC thanks to nostr:npub1864jglrrhv6alguwql9pqtmd5296nww5dpcewapmmcazk8vq4mks0tt2tq but by definition, Monero doesnāt want to be identified, so merchant adoption and merchant transaction volume are always obfuscated on Monero.
Again, all that said, the size of Bitcoin in every metric compared with all other altcoins combined is greater and verifiable, so singling out one of the 3 million altcoins to compare with the 58% dominant Bitcoin will always be moot.
I would agree with that
"Don't Trust, Verify" is just as alive in Monero community as Bitcoin. Almost every major wallet is non-custodial and FOSS (I don't really know many that aren't but I'm sure there are a few), you can run a Monero node, and additionally they don't trust their privacy with the world.
>"So, to be clear, Monero IS NOT as widely adopted as Bitcoin, not even close, nor is it widely used."
First part is true. But is very different from being "used".
>"But don't make false claims because it destroys the truth and support you have from people like me."
Also agree
What maybe gave Aeneas that impression is that proportionally most Bitcoiners place more emphasis on hodling vs Monero users. The average joe is also probably holding Bitcoin IOUs and letting it just sit there on their Coinbase app. And also things like this:
Just remembered this conversation and wanted to show you this
Ah nice š