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Be your own tax haven. Imagine a world without lawyers. [Insert Simpson meme]

So disappointing that the mafias are not massively using it yet, the drug cartels and etc...we must onboard them all.

maybe I can be against some mafias, so could not want actively onboard them 😅. Still bitcoin is neutral and should be optimized for black market and criminals, and so for mafia. When they will realize theres a tool for them, we will have them in. If they do something really bad and hamring to us, we will need to fight in other ways instead of expecting that the state censors them.

Also the state is always the first investor for mafias.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i think there isn't mafias without governments and fiat fraud bankers... it's just a bunch of criminals from top to bottom

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

agree, the money printer is like the ring, and the state is mordor. We have the occasion to destroy the printer, and everyone near it has the temptation to keep it working to print money to himself.

Its important to destroy it, it will not end injustice, wars and mafias but will make them costly for actors that want do that. And incentives, at this point, make wars unsostainable, and mafias better (cause to competition and limited resources).

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

yeah, like #monero

basically only useful for black and red market monopoly violators... mostly black of course, mostly drugs, but also bypassing security of fiat banking payment systems a lot

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i like to from time to time honeypot the monaros so i can identify more of them and add them to my mute list, i should make a special extra list beside it so other people can easily avoid following or seeing idiot monaro anti-bitcoin trolling

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

these feature would be a great marketing for monero... if only digital scarcity could be preserved when arbitrary printing shitcoin, and if it could not trending to zero agsinst bitcoin (that is also more private if used well due to network effect and plausable deniabilty)...

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

bitcoin will probably have Confidential Transactions before it gets covenants (CATV) in the coming halving cycle... could get both but for sure private transactions have more importance for big bitcoin bankers i think

it's complete nonsense that chain analysis can actually catch very much flows of bitcoin, and wallets are increasingly respecting the "use address only once" mantra

explicitly trying to make it untraceable just makes a certainty about no inflation bugs impossible to be certain about, idgaf what the monaros say about how it can be fucking audited because you can't decode the amounts of transactions so how the fuck could that ever be possible then? ultimately not, that's the point, that's why UTXOs

you can even find references to the question in early discussions involving satoshi where he basically said much the same thing... UTXOs enable pseudonymity and supply audit... obfuscating the amounts breaks this property, and the place where the keys for a UTXO exist physically is unknown until they are already spent

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

anyhow, idk how CTs work exactly, and frankly i don't give a fuck about more privacy than being able to send to addresses that nobody knows where they keys are, that's enough, by itself, so long as your payment recipients don't reuse keys

unfortunately, my bank reuses an address, i should nag them about that, it's very naughty... it does make chainanalysis easier

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

ah yeah, i forgot... CTs don't hide the amount they hide the spend address

when the receiving UTXO spends it does not reveal the prior UTXO linked to it, so it keeps the auditability while further obscuring the link to the spending key of the receiver

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

they will be usable for LN channels too, which means that the spending transaction and the settlement transaction will not be linkable

rafael_xmr 1y ago

bitcoin definitely isn't getting CT before covenants, no one is talking about CT for bitcoin

and CT hides amounts, most bitcoiners are afraid of hidden inflation so they want to see all amounts forever to be sure there are only 21m bitcoins ever being transacted

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

governments not being able to control bitcoin is as important as bitcoin not inflating, because whatever degree of control governments get over bitcoin the first thing they will try to do is inflate it

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

ct seems to me something a bit difficult to obtain trought soft fork, how can a legacy client is supposed to react to a redacted amount?

I think CISA could be more interesting as a base to make every spend a coinjoin and create incentive to mix everyone you can, disrupting eurisptics

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i don't know the name of the proposal

it just makes it so the spend address cannot be known ahead of time, it doesn't hide the amounts

I don't think there will ever be monero style hidden amount CTs because of the auditability problem, but being able to prevent attackers from knowing what address spending to monitor for is a big advance for privacy

rafael_xmr 1y ago

Oh do you mean MW (mimblewimble) then? It was added to Litecoin as an "extension block" (like a sidechain) and they call it MWEB for MimbleWimble Extension Block

In Litecoin's case they implemented it with CT so it hides amounts but it can be done just as a "mixing" protocol

e8

e8cd2bec... 1y ago

Bitcoin should just add optional MWEB. A turnstile going back to the transparent side would still guarantee supply.

rafael_xmr 1y ago

that is true, but then priorities now should be first mining decentralization, so that no one nation state can control the transactions in blocks and its emission, and then getting consensus for CT or covenants, but still you can ask around and you'll see how most bitcoiners value the auditability as one of bitcoin's most important features as way to "fight" governments to show them how bitcoin is the scarcest asset ever and all that, and then some will also say how privacy should come in layers or something else

So hiding the amounts on-chain transacted make auditing harder, but that's just it, auditing the full supply is still possible it's just harder cryptographic math that proves the amount is valid, rather than telling everyone what amount everyone is transacting between each other

But getting consensus and pushing a change like this to bitcoin at this point would be a big "fuck you" to all governments out there definitely

89

8910c9f2... 1y ago

Scarcity alone doesn't give something value. You can't arbitrarily print Monero. And Bitcoins plausible deniability is strictly worse than Monero.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy

89

8910c9f2... 1y ago

Black markets are the only place Bitcoin and Moneros core value prop works. You're following arbitrary laws of the state on white markets (your transactions are permissioned there). How do you not understand that?

If your transactions require permission on white markets, there is no reason to use Bitcoin/Monero over fiat there. It's worse in every way. Even NGU breaks there because you can be taxed more to offset your gains.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

so you think bitcoin is only worth more and more every cycle because it is first mover and poor little monero would otherwise not be pegged to the dollar as it practically is

no, that's because monero has no SoV capacity, because whatever you moranos say about it being auditable, it's still questionable whether there is not an open ended possibility of an inflation bug and people are only using it for the black market so its basically being used as an intermediary only, nobody is holding it, nobody

so, whatever you think about the "value proposition" of bitcoin is obviously missing more than just FMA to why bitcoin is staying ahead of inflation

it could be the fact that its auditabilty is unquestionable and complete maybe?

when a commodity wants to become a medium of exchange, its first use is always store of value

precious metals were this originally, just a way of holding a lot of value that didn't decay, so, it stores the value

then they made it easier to transact with by minting it, so the cost of trusting it was lower. this is actually the same thing as the auditability issue - it makes certainty about the quality of the asset cheap to assess, not like a fancy gold necklace that could just be gold plated steel, where proving it's worth something is expensive

without the ready, easy to determine, and certain evaluation of the value and provenance of the asset, it can't be a store of value and thus monero is fundamentally broken as a money from its initial premise

just get over it, after 13 years or however long it has been, monero has done nothing to become more widely adopted than bitcoin

bitcoin could and still is being used for black market

and it's also good for ETFs and lightning network use, even this ordinals shit couldn't be done on monero

monero is too narrow in its purpose and its real use case is very much limited to the "value proposition" you speak of

otherwise, explain why bitcoin has got so many other uses giving it additional value, and monero doesn't

because nobody trusts monero, monero can't be counted with absolute certainty, nobody is holding it so nobody wants to hold it

until you get that loop of holding - demand for holding you have got fidget spinners

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

and on that last point, any analysis of the history that doesn't acknowledge that the market is rational and makes this assessment is literally both retarded and misanthropic

mbl 1y ago

The market is never rational, it's all about future expectation, it's a full speculation, nothing about the present. What happened in 1929 ? 2001 ? 2008 ? In history, there is a bubble every time, bubble is just a wrong expectation. Is it rational that Bitcoin lose 90% in few months ? The market is driven by sentiments, if market where rational, pump and dump because of nothing will not happen, up and down movement should only happen when a news come in, but... it's not like that, so the market is not and will never be rational. If you want a rational market, humans should not be able to buy or sell, only programs which are making decisions with news, because humans are driven by emotions, we love, we hate, we have expectation and hope, nothing rational here. Why do you buy Bitcoin ? Because you think it's the best store of value ? Maybe you are wrong, so, isn't a bubble ? Who knows ? What is rational ? What is not ? Maybe you have right, maybe not. It's all about speculation, isn't ? We are betting isn't ? Maybe Bitcoin will be hacked, maybe it will be shutdown, maybe the US Government will suddenly ban it ? Do you know the future ? So, what is rational ?

e8

e8cd2bec... 1y ago

...So you agree that darknet markets are rational and correct to go with Monero over Bitcoin too

mbl 1y ago

"people are only using it for the black market"

What people said about Bitcoin 10 years ago ?

"bitcoin could and still is being used for black market"

Only fool are using Bitcoin in black market 🤣

If you have a brain, you will use Monero over Bitcoin, isn't obvious ?

"and it's also good for ETFs"

Well, it depends on regulation acceptance and Wall Street, it have nothing to do with Bitcoin or Monero itself

"because nobody trusts monero"

I trust Monero for preserving my financial privacy, not Bitcoin

"nobody is holding it so nobody wants to hold it"

And so ? Is it the purpose of Bitcoin ? Isn't to be electronic cash ? Isn't to be a transactional system, rather than a holding system ? Bitcoin wasn't created to replace the dollar, rather than Gold ?

If you save on Bitcoin and use dollar for everyday transaction, you miss the whole point of Bitcoin

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

1) agree, bitcoin is used mostly in fiat market and this is a shame.

2) bitcoin can be used for blackmarket easily. Monero could be part of a money laundering strategy for very expert people, but today with lightning it is become completely useless.

3) IDGAF about etf, thats not a point. ETF on monero is impossible as it wpuld be just a tend-to-zero function.

4) If you trust monero for preserving your financial privacy you are delusional. You should do the proof of work of understanding how bitcoin works and take some real privacy for you.

5) money have value if people hold it and want to hold it, this is just a basic and important concept. Still, I think you should own monero if you think its valuable, have fun.

e8

e8cd2bec... 1y ago

1) Agree

2) Anything is possible. Bitcoin could make a comeback for black markets if it gets better privacy layers. I would love that. It's funny that many point to Bitcoins price saying how it is right when it comes to that, but then pull a 180 and say the market is wrong about Monero when it comes to black markets. No one uses Lightning there and Bitcoin is falling out of favor. Just look at any of the popular DNMs

3) Yep ETFs miss the point. A permissioned Bitcoin IOU is oxymoronic

4) Historically you are right, but it's a great digital cash.

5) You're wrong about that. It's always been MoE -> SoV. Saifedean and his ilk have mislead many by popularizing this narrative:

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

about the 5), "transmitting value trought time" is your first definition of money, and is a point where bitcoin excel and monero fails. With lightning bitcoin become better in trasmitting trought space. Still monero is also bad in trasmitting trought space, as is designed to being pretty unverifiable as more people would ever start using it.

00

007dffeb... 1y ago

First, it's not my definition it is the definition of the most renown Austrian economists who popularized the field that Bitcoin maxis are ostensibly fanboys of (Menger, Mises, Rothbard, etc)

Monero is constantly transmitting value though space just fine especially where i matters (free markets AKA black markets). If it becomes a SoV is yet to be seen since as it's currently in the MoE phase which is a precursor to SoV.

Gold total supply was never "verifiable" (and still isnt), but it still became money for humanity for thousands of years.

Yes, lightning is also transmitting value through space in tinier amounts, but almost entirely through custodians which defeats the entire purpose of Bitcoin (removing trusted third parties). There is almost no reason to use Bitcoin over fiat if you are trusting third parties and asking permission anyway. Maybe you guys will fix it's UX deficiencies at some point, and proliferate self-custodial permissionless transactions, then you'll have a stronger argument.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

lightning frankly is just good todsy in UX, with a solution like phoenix you have bolt12 for hinding sendere/receiver and a fantastic non-custodial UX just with a smartphone app. If you are a bit more techie and want to try something more powerful and sovrein you can try zeus that start working well.

If you want to take the things serioisly you can always run a node.

I things the UX is became better than monero, its only that people understand how a shitcoin works, and lightning need too study a little the new thing.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i've heard monaros citing the "can't scale to everyone" argument which is absurd because everyone can't use monero either

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

they don't understand that lightning uses onion routing to send payments, it's pathetic

🤦🏼‍♀️ 1y ago

they do, you just don't listen.

d8

Nope 1y ago

Lightning users love to point this out, but it's only somewhat similar to onion routing.

Every node on Tor is directly connected, or has the potential to directly connect, with every other node. Lightning Network payment channels do not fully-connect.

The entire network and the network topology is also publicly known for routing nodes and natural incentives of this mean traffic consolidates to a few large nodes negating any remaining similarities or benefits of Tor.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

so, is this your 50th new npub or what?

d8

Nope 1y ago

So is this your 50th attempt to dodge or what?

d8

Nope 1y ago

No, what happens is Bitcoin maxi say Monero can't scale, when not even lightning scales without 100+MB blocks right now. So it's a moot point you guys bring up.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

the point is, from these words you are saying, you have no understanding of what you are talking about.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

I not agree, even if monero chooses a way to add confidentiality keeping the supply easily auditable, it would still be a shitcoin.

The digital nature of bitcoin makes the money-convergence-forces even stronger than what has been with the gold shelling-point.

Bimetallic in digital realm has no much sense, and find a "second shelling point for supporting MoE use cases", like silver has been, has no sense at all.

The ingegneristic problem of makes bitcoin pieces of informations floating more rapidly is a second-layer challange, and is becoming better everyday. And we can expect better solutions for the future, not like monero or shitcoins reimplementing their blockchain where we can see them work just if noone uses it.

Also monero as shitcoin sucks and histradeoffs suck, but this is secondary to me.

e8

e8cd2bec... 1y ago

>"The digital nature of bitcoin makes the money-convergence-forces even stronger than what has been with the gold shelling-point."

What is special about Bitcoins digital nature alone? Monero is digital too and so is every single crypto. Even fiat is digital.

You would have to explain why despite Monero not having NGU and being banned from countries and dropped from exchanges...it is increasingly growing in Darknet Markets. Shouldnt it be the opposite?

>"Bimetallic in digital realm has no much sense"

It makes even more sense in the digital realm since it is quicker and cheaper to swap digitally vs swapping physical metal irl

I think it's crazy to think one day there will magically only be Bitcoin. With open permissionless system in a free market there will always be different cryptocurrencies to greater and lesser degrees.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

I agree, in future will be bitcoin + bunch of ausiliary informations-trasmitting solutions to help it spreading. But it wont be monero as it is shit and reimplement worse all the problem of bitcoin, it would be something else. And these solutions will change a lot trought time, shitcoins has been a phase and is ended time ago.

e8

e8cd2bec... 1y ago

Notice how you completely avoided my point and changed the subject to SoV/NGU/auditability. If you're asking for permission to use Bitcoin you throw out it's entire value prop and advantage over fiat for those transactions. That is what you do when you make white market transactions.

What advantage does Bitcoin/Monero have left if you're limited to what the state allows or can arbitraily change? NGU? That can be reduced or taken away too on white markets.

Without that USD is quicker, cheaper, more liquid, no additional tax to transact, and no regulatory uncertainty, and it's network effect is much larger

Black markets are the only place where their value props are constant and fully realized

Mashi mashi 1y ago

He was/is(?) an anti-samourai and anti-monero larper all the time, using those tools to achieve red/black/red market goals.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

no, they are not good tools for privacy, they are larpers

Mashi mashi 1y ago

Utxos with Zero-Link tx graph and resistant to time analysis attacks when it's remixed on the coinjoin pool, Samurai is one of the few wallets that implement proper spending tools.

Monero protocol obfuscates all on-chain mechanics, IRS can't track it.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

samourai was a bad actor in the space attacking everyone criticized their (mostly bad) tools. The wallet gave by default the master pubkey to samourai, giving them the possibility to deanonimize most of the coinjoins (even if you were running your own dojo, if you were in a pool full of samourai users you loose your privacy).

The spending tools was bad, for example ricochet txs payed them a fees on a static hardcoded address every three hops, adding a gigantic fingerprint on user transactions instead of giving anonimity.

Some other aspect of the products were good, but nothing that wasnt possible to do 1000x times better with more advanced tools and just a bit of knowledge.

Their community was composed by dishonests and retards, and they were attacking literally everyone touched their god, including nostr:nprofile1qqsw79gu0guq7s98t473fyavx3akwaafmx6l5z4rehd50lrcl2mf4zcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0r3md60

I still sincerely hope the samourai guys will be free soon, and I think the govermemt is by order of magnitude a worst actor then samourai.

Monero is a shitcoin and tend to zero in value, and has been made pretty outdated by lightning and layer2 solutions combined, I cant think a single use case where I would use monero today.

Mashi mashi 1y ago

Monero has darknet dominance (ransomware and dnms, soon p2p markets because it's forced to do)... it's the market that's the ultimate judge and no one can track it, only if the users act stupid. I think that's the point of the conversation, how permissionless markets do transactions and not the price of the asset.

The samurai tools is not just ricochet, and I think it depends on whether you make a communication channel with the samurai paynym. That's a good question for LaurenMt.

The xpubkey leak was only on samurai wallet connecting to the samurai node, or how do you connect the addresses if you don't use your own node? Bloom filters are useless in a low bandwidth environment (aka tor network)

LaurenMt, the brain behind the Samurai tools and DojoCoder, spells out the usual fud on Samurai. I trust more on people who are in danger of jail, that people who comply or bash the dark net markets tools.

The tx graph on btc it's really bad, the good thing is that swaps between different networks of btc is pretty easy and spending on lighting is really private

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

Still pretty noone uses monero, it gained some popularity as a meme for privacy, but, in the end, just a few people uses it and the volumes are ridicously low. It could have some advantages in darknet situations, like be sure that the retarded stoners dont pay the vendor directly from binance. So the tx graph is obfuscated and theres a privacy gain, but this use has made technologically obsolete by lightning, that works better everyday.

I dont trust noone, in particular samourai guys. I usually verify, and I verified that samourai tools was not so great (the fact that has been so easy to stop them is an hint on how most of the the design of the tools was bad and centralized). They was a joke for expert people that can have a better experience with better tools, and they was flawed in many points so to not make them a good solutions for newbies.

Mashi mashi 1y ago

Imagine a tornado cash smart contract on rsk chain, unstoppable and it's free speech already on US. So no further persecution to obfuscate rsk-btc.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

frankly I dont know this rsk chain, but sounds to me like bullshit.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

I like his client-side validation RGB thing for private transactions, but I don't know much about it. Is it out yet and does anyone use it?

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

there are some experimental things running but it seems that its not ready yet with really usable products.

HODLudek 1y ago

I wish for Bitcoin to be ban by goverments of the west, especially in US. This would force people to use it as it was supposed to be used and stop being so naive about the "benefits" of the state embracing/coopting it.

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