Solar is good from a decentralization perspective. The grid is just another monopoly in our flawed society.
Discussion
Solar + storage
Shame about it relying on the weather. I'm English!
Yea but when you look at the manufacturing process it's not so good. Heavy reliance on China.
Not to mention the waste disposal problem of solar panels which solar fan boys never fail to address.
Microgrids could be an excellent example of coordinated/shared/coop approach to infrastructure. Much of our water, power, sewer infrastructure just needs significant resources to work the way want (just works) - financial, human, technical … and maybe offer an exciting opportunity for the Nostr-mentality to rethink how these services and infrastructure or implemented and maintained.
Solar mynode file server
Even better would be home nuclear generators.
Currently the have small scale modular generators for small cities but I think they could probably go smaller one day.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a33896110/tiny-nuclear-reactor-government-approval/
You can use nuclear waste as well.
A single sealed container would provide you free heat for several generations.
So are wood stoves
Energy scarcity is a falsehood... Research energy harvested from the aether... It is how it was done in our erased past... Cathedral = Cathode 
I like how this is not even trying to make sense.
Not yet ;-) give it time...
My point is that you could make this way more convincing if you actually understood either the physics and electricity and/or the gothic architecture terminology. You are not too good at this.
Oh the ego... We could exchange ideas, or if it makes you feel bigger to belittle someone go ahead... I don't claim to know what you know... Happy to discuss...
Doesn’t scale for industry but great for individual use.
It think it scales for industry rather better than individual use. Panels are dirt cheap, the expensive part is mounting and power electronics, both of which benefit from economies of scale.
The main drawback is availability requiring battery packs. This also benefits from scale but is still expensive. One this industry can do that individuals cannot, is schedule energy intensive batch processes to times of peak production.
Seems ugly and wasteful — if you ever see the giant solar farm outside of Vegas, for example. But some panels on a roof for home use is a no brainer IMO. And yeah, also the intermittent availability.
Ugly is a choice. We can do much better. We can also utilize the area beneath panels more wisely. Proper spacing could probably increase vegetation due to better water retention with shade.
Not in the US. The grid isn't a monopoly.
But it definitely is an oligopoly run by dozens of zombie companies.
Awful take.
Location dependent.
Not when talking the perspective of grid stability and cost. Without subsides solar or any scale cost us roughly 7x the price of a combine cycle unit. And the more solar on the grid the more fast acting stable power generation is required to backup.
Sure but for off grid in sunny locations it makes a lot of sense. I have used it on a small scale in an RV and also to extend power to a barn without having to run new wire. On a sail boat I can’t imagine a more reliable energy source. Solar allows us to push boundaries beyond where grids can reach. There’s also a lot of reason to want a non-grid dependent option even in the heart of the city. Grid tied solar is a shitcoin IMHO.
You’re arguing with yourself. This post was about grid decentralization.
The goal should always be cheap over abundant power. Solar is the exact opposite of that at scale.
Reread the original post. I read it to say grid=monopoly. Solar=optionality.
If it’s not connected to the grid then there’s zero decentralization. Only solar. Logic loop incomplete.
I’m trying to follow your argument and give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe I’m missing something but in what way is having distributed independent providers of power not decentralization? I’m here to learn, not to prove a point so open to the idea I’m wrong.
Independent solar systems to power a boat or an rv are single source power generators. Grids with multiple sources of power generation (solar being one). Form a web of decentralized power generators. In the large grid scale(which most of humanity needs to survive modern life) solar simply increases power cost and reduces reliability.
I use on grid here in Brazil
The grid is an inherent monopoly. Having a grid makes a lot of sense. Having two is stupid.
To me the grid should just be a backup from decentralized power, like solar.
That's nonsense. Lots of electricity users use more power on their property than decentralized power sources like solar could ever hope to provide economically.
Peak sunlight is only ~1000W/m², and even the most exotic solar panels are at best 45% efficient. And obviously, production is a lot less taking daylight and weather into account.
You're always going to need a grid if you want an industrial economy.
There are no low energy use, prosperous countries…we need more energy not less…much more
I am not sure where that data is coming from, but it is not what I see. I have tons of friends that use solar for most things. My brother has a full year of credit from the grid because of that. It's not mind-blowing from a monetary perspective, but it is a huge win for decentralization.
They probably overproduce during midday and underproduce all other time.
It's not good for grid stability.
For most places net billing is an absurd subsidy.
The only time it isn't is the very rare places where power costs are dominated by marginal costs, e.g. islands where base load is provided by expensive diesel generators.
Yes, you have friends, who are powering their personal lives – their low density homes – with solar. That doesn't mean much.
I took a look at some stats, and it looks like a typical supermarket in a mild climate uses roughly 1000kWh/year of floor space. Meanwhile, in Ontario, a typical 20% efficient, high efficiency solar panel can produce just 277kWh/year. Parking needs for a supermarket are roughly twice as much parking as m² of floorspace (it is common to put in more).
Even if you covered the entire roof with solar panels, and the parking lot, you'd barely break even on energy in theory. In practice you'd do even worse than that as it's common to go without significant sunlight for days or even weeks.
...and that's just a low density, single story, supermarket! There are so many businesses, and residences, that use way more energy per m² than that.
Doing without an electricity grid is a pipe dream.
Yeah, from a stats standpoint you can make any story you want. I just know the anecdotal stories from friends and colleages that managed to make it work and are quite happy with their choices. Especially because the grid kept fucking the up in the past. For instance, now in Mass we pay 2x for distribution than for the energy itself.
Again, it's not sufficient for peoples' low density homes to be self sufficient to get rid of the electricity grid. You need decentralized power for the entire economy, which is a pipe dream in most places.
I've been to countries that are forced to do that due to incompetence, lack of investment, or in the case of Ukraine , a genocidal invasion. They use a hell of a lot of expensive diesel generators.
E.g. even though South Africa is very sunny,
businesses in the wealthy, white areas supplement their solar panels with diesel generators.
Finally, paying more for the grid than the electricity itself isn't a bad thing. It just means that the market price of power is cheaper than actually distributing it. Lots of commodities are like that: the majority of the cost of gravel, sand, concrete, water, etc. is often transport and distribution.
I am not pitching getting rid of the grid. I am just pitching more freedom for users. The grid will always be there as backup for households that want to truly be free from that system.
Yes exactly, been saying this for years - just cover roofs and anything already concrete like parking lots with solar.
and Peter is missing the trees, for the weeds.
Solar adoption would increase innovation & all the electric use cases he laid out are becoming more efficient as well.
Oh, and actually, reading about this more the 1000kWh/year figure I quoted above is more for hypermarkets, that aren't actually selling mainly food. For a true supermarket that sells mainly food it's more like 1500kWh/year, assuming an efficient centralized refrigerator system.
Actually the efficiency in around 20%.
And then you need batteries...
And then there is weather....
And then there is winter....
It gets really expensive.
Yes, I quoted 45% to show how even with massive technical improvements this is hopeless. You're absolutely correct. In fact, typical solar efficiency for cheap installs is more like 15%, as the 20% panels are a fair bit more expensive.
The theoretical limit for solar panels, assuming a multi-junction solar cell with an infinite number of layers, is only 68.7%
(Small) nukes are the way to go. Solar is (mostly) a waste of time and resources.
It's not waste of you value your freedom from everyone else. Small Nuclear is still a local monopoly.
Nuclear power can be scaled down significantly.
I envision a future where I own my own (tiny) reactor that powers my house for 20+ years, continuously. I would mine Bitcoin with the excess energy and not rely on the grid to balance my otherwise predictably unpredictable power production.
Ultimately, a free market should determine the future. All subsidies must be eliminated because they hinder genuine progress, especially when combined with the Communist/Green Ideology.
We need farms for food more than we need electric cars
Electric tractors! Diesel is a huge expense for farmers. Being about to produce their own energy would be huge.
Once battery and storage make exponential improvements, there will be a renaissance in the solar industry.
Hopefully SMRs will help charge that
Finally a good take here
Nuclear micro-reactors would be better (:
I only believe when I see one installed and running.
Would love to have my own windmill
It enables you to live in locations in which the state's electricity provider doesn't have a presence.
I've noticed it's hard to get some buildings connected to the grid. Once connected, it's even harder to get their cables removed from your property.
My wife and I have built our off-grid solar power system that meets our needs and even helps us mine for Bitcoin. Having a ZERO electricity bill is the best!
very very true.
Solar does not "scale". Or at least, its very costly to do so.
Local solar is incredible. Weve been using it for a couple years.