Look up the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Muslims vs Jews. We have _far_ more to lose if the Jewish population is driven out than if a bunch of people with a social media history of anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism get their visas cancelled.
Discussion
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(and no, the Nobel Peace Prize doesn't count)
That NPP was ironically, yet unironically, given to a terrorist, that the leaders of the world then became enamoured with.
Hear me out:
Give the Muslims the “holy land” in exchange for pulling all their people out of western countries.
The Israelis get all of New Jersey
Why make an exchange? You can just force them out and let Jews continue to live where they've lived for thousands of years. Indeed, Israel can expand.
Gaza owes Israel an enormous amount of money in damages. Gaza giving up land to pay for those damages would be fair.
don't you think that being kicked out because of what you say or think is wrong?
It's perfectly reasonable for countries to pick and choose who they accept as new residents and citizens. Irrational hated of one of the most successful parts of American society is a pretty good grounds for not allowing you in.
Besides, when you actually look into the details of these deportations they appear to be pretty much all for more than just saying wrong things. Eg organizing protests involving clearly illegal acts like trespassing on private property, vandalism, violence, material support of terrorists, etc.
nostr:npub1ej493cmun8y9h3082spg5uvt63jgtewneve526g7e2urca2afrxqm3ndrm the most successful part of American society is military and political support for Israel?
And if somebody commits a crime, they can be arrested, charged, put on trial, get a chance to defend themselves, and then face conviction. If they’re breaking a law, there is a process for that. It’s an important part of the 5th amendment equal protection and due process parts of the constitution. After being convicted for an of the illegal acts you mention, then by all revoke their visa.
But if you’re revoking visas of people for constitutionally protected legal speech without a legal due process, that’s the not consistent with aspirations of what America could be.
8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(3)(B)(i)
Any material support for US designated terrorist groups (including disseminating propaganda) is reason enough for non-admission or deportation of non-citizens
Open shut
The real problem isn’t that they’re getting deported, it’s that they were not suitably vetted in the first place.
But these folks wrote editorials and held protests asking for an end to the war in Gaza. Not in any way endorsing or providing any material support to Hamas.
And even if they did violate that law and provide real material support for Hamas or other designated terrorist organization then they should be arrested, charged, put on trial, and found guilty of that crime. Then and only then would it make sense to revoke their visa. If what they did was illegal then charge them and use that conviction to justify their being deported. Immigrants and permanent residents deserve their day in court and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
But as you said, speech isn’t a crime so there is nothing to charge. We’re talking about visa revocation.
There’s no grounds for revoking their visa based on constitutionally protected speech. The courts have ruled many times that immigrants have the constitutional right to freedom of speech, assembly, due process, and equal protection under the law.
Either we scrap the constitutional rights and the courts reinterpret the constitution or these people deserve a day in court if the government feels they’ve done something bad enough revoke their visa. And that thing legally can not be what they said or what protest they attended. If they were arrested for say breaking a window at the protest, that’s a crime and they could be charged, put on trial, convicted of that and have their visa revoked. Because of what they did and not what they said.
8 U.S. Code § 1182(a)(3)(B)
I don’t know what to tell you
A visa isn’t a right, it’s a privilege. If you want to keep it, you abide by its terms. One of the terms is you don’t support US designated terror orgs.
You can lie on your visa and say you don’t support the KKK but if the government finds out that you do, your visa is revoked.
nostr:npub1n0sxxgvsm4hk0utv9russrtj2p08j0wxddk0jasjtd9aulrcz78slkce54 so charge them! If they really supported a terrorist organization then it’ll be easy to get a conviction.
There’s nothing to charge. It’s a violation of visa terms, not a crime. Like overstaying a tourist visa. It doesn’t mean you’re a criminal, just that you violated the terms of your stay and are now eligible for deportation.
Yes. It's all bluster from current admin and many jew lovers.
Yup.
...and like it or not but almost all "support for Gaza" is just support for Hamas, who are _clearly_ a dangerous terrorist group with a long history of mass murder.
I'm talking about Jews obviously. They're over-represented in pretty much every worthwhile, productive, part of US society.
There's a wonderful part in the recent Oppenheimer movie where they explicitly discuss how the Nazis are screwing themselves over because so many of their top scientists were Jews. And it's absolutely historically accurate too.
Letting pro-Hamas/anti-Israeli nutjobs force the Jewish population of the US out would be an economic disaster, to say the least.
a lot of this people where already admitted into the US. I'm not american and I can be wrong on how the constitution works. But shouldn't they be put on charged and then after they are found guilty, is when you actually get deported?
I think this is a huge slippery slope
look at it from the other side
Don’t you think that being allowed into a country no matter what your beliefs are is wrong?
What if there was a group of immigrants who cheered for the KKK and Dylan Roof in college campuses, hanging nooses and harassing African Americans.
Do we need to keep them too?
nostr:npub1n0sxxgvsm4hk0utv9russrtj2p08j0wxddk0jasjtd9aulrcz78slkce54 the US legal system is very clear that immigrants and people on temporary visas have constitutional rights to free speech, political association, equal protection under the law, and due process. I think those things which are important parts of the American system are really good and should be defended.
Do I want immigrants supporting Dylan Roof or the KKK? No, but I do want a society that protects free speech. Just like I build on Nostr because I believe in building an internet where people can say things I don’t like or want to hear. I’m very confused to find people who advocate for censorship and authoritarianism on a platform like Nostr.
Turns out we don’t need to go by what any one person “wants” because the law actually allows for deportation in the case of visa holders who support US-designated terror groups
If someone states their support for a terror org on their visa application it can and should get denied (non-admittance). If someone starts supporting the KKK after they arrive, they can and should be deported (revocation).
It’s actually a smart solution if you think about it. Why would we import KKK en masse? What on earth for? To what end?
I'm not saying that you have to allow them in, my argument is that once they are inside the borders. They should have the full protection of the constitution.
And they do. But if they violate the terms of their visas they are deported.
did they violate the terms? have they been convicted?
Convictions are for crimes
They aren’t being accused of any crime because there is no criminal code for speech in the United States
They have been found violating the terms of their visa and they shall be deported.
what are the terms of the visas?
The relevant one appears to be “no material support (including dissemination of propaganda) for US designated terror orgs”
Unlike American citizens, visa holders are allowed to remain in the United States only conditionally, and can be deported for violating visa terms - including speech that qualifies as support for terrorism - even without a criminal conviction. Immigration law operates separately from criminal law (8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(3)(B), § 1227(a)(4)(B)).
Because deportation is an administrative, not criminal, proceeding, the burden of proof is lower, there is no right to a jury trial, and no right to a public defender.
Did you read the quote? Point was the it’s lazy name-matching, not actual targeting people with objectionable social media posts.
Like if we want to have a law which says social media posts promoting the Palestinian cause is illegal material support of terrorism then get that law passed or get the courts to rule that social media posts are material support.
Then go and investigate and arrest people who commit that crime. If convicted of the crime, then they can either directly be deported or serve their sentence and then be deported.
But what’s happening is not that legal process. It’s using an AI bot to find posts which might express a political view which might be by the person you think it is, which might be illegal. If it’s a crime, get a warrant to get records from social media companies and identify the actual person responsible for posting that illegal material.
Personally I’m on Nostr because I don’t believe the state has any business punishing people for their speech. But sounds like you the idea that a government official can just decide what people can and can not say.
Both of you are idiots. One of you because you don't understand justice, and the other one because you believe in justice.
We did some zap tests on this note… we made six attempts to⚡zap this note, at jimbocoin@btcpay175473.lndyn.com, over a period of 23 minutes. Six of the zaps were successfully paid... Please check for 6 satoshis received. Problem: we found that your lightning address server **did not** produce any zap receipts. This means that nobody else could see see that you got zapped... no number appears next to the ⚡icon after zapping.... We recommend that you use a cloud-based Lightning node to get more reliable zaps.
Zap receipts reveal the location of your node and are generally a really terrible idea.
Also I’m lazy and haven’t bothered to set it up
Given that zaps require a Lightning Address, do Zap Receipts add any more bad stuff? Also since Zap Receipts are sent via Nostr relays, I'm vague on how they would actually reveal your location. They can be sent by any computer, anywhere. In our case they're sent by our web application a Rizful.com, the same one that receives the http request to initiate the whole "zap" dance according to Nip-57.....
AFAIU they work through generic HTTP callbacks. Implementing a LN-Address server can create invoices without being on the same server as the node, or it can be behind a reverse proxy to hide it. You can proxy the outbound response but (a) I absolutely refuse to have a TLS client in my lightning node 🤮, (b) some websites block Tor anyway so callbacks may not be as reliable and (c) proxying through Tor is a bunch more work than just serving being a reverse proxy.
Generally the zap design is horrendous and only makes sense for custodial wallets that already run a bunch of HTTP infra. Luckily there’s a better way (just literally do a BOLT 12 payment and have the payer post the payment proof as a nostr event, rather than making the payee’s lightning node somehow nostr-aware), but need movement there.
umm
As if a Nobel prize was a real award for real smart people. The smart Jews who deserve a Nobel prize like Ludwig Von Mises will never be awarded.
Yes, we would lose the oh-so-brilliant people who gave us fractional reserve banking, mass democracy, pornography, vaccines and drugs that destroy our minds and souls, forced US entry into both world wars, an anti-White and anti-natal campaign of world-spanning proportions, and who pushed sexual perversion and mutilation on a fantastic and possibly fatal scale.