Nostr Web Client

IMHO, Bitcoin going into the system as a ‘victory’ for the system is just the Trojan horse playing out.

Folks that need greater privacy have ramps between privacy coins like monero, and bitcoin, and there are newer developments (such as FROST) that provide greater privacy as well. The only way that fiat can be destroyed is by it infecting the system and making it eat itself from inside out.

AncapAnon - Activate OP_GFY now! 1y ago

nostr:npub1sn0wdenkukak0d9dfczzeacvhkrgz92ak56egt7vdgzn8pv2wfqqhrjdv9 is a hero but he just handwaves about “baking privacy at the protocol level.” You can’t have privacy and decentralization and a modicum of scalability all at once. Privacy will come once people earn their coins instead of buying them from cucked exchanges.

Hanshan 1y ago

monero has privacy ✅

and decentralization ✅

and a modicum of scalability ✅

🤨

Hanshan 1y ago

ELI5 how incentivizing institutional adoption results in "infecting the system and making it eat itself from the inside out"

(whatever that means)

and NOT regulatory capture of the network and de facto criminalization of sovereign usage.

vectr 1y ago

A new (to me) concern is that institutional/state control of a large percentage of utxo’s provides them an opportunity to use a subset of miners and effectively isolate those coins to their approved and kyc’d network. They just don’t broadcast txns outside their domain. A network fork I guess.

Hanshan 1y ago

Andreas was talking about this sort of thing years ago

it seems unlikely to be valuable to create a walled garden within the network

but regulatory capture is a real thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc

vectr 1y ago

Interesting, I’ll watch this tonight. But right now, I think it’s uncomfortably likely. They don’t need to overpower the existing network. Once they have say 10 million to 14 million btc under control, they just start using a subset of nodes running their own validation filters. And only sending txns within their network. If they never spend to an unauthorized address then those coins are effectively lost to the existing/organic network. They use their own chain fork going forward. I guess the original network could keep going, but it would be stunted.

vectr 1y ago

nostr:npub1lxzaxzge0jq9u9cecucctdt5lslwgp7hcxmp2l0wn8r2ecjenwasu6svxa bullseye. Yeah, that’s what I’m concerned about. I was also against etf’s for some of these reasons plus some or all of them are going to try the paper bitcoin game. Didn’t realize he was saying this 6 years ago though.

Hanshan 1y ago

super smart dude

Erik Cason 1y ago

Institutional investors (particularly non-us ones) see bitcoin as a greater safe haven than treasury bills. Fiat goes to hyperinflation.

jimbocoin 🃏 1y ago

Hanshan 1y ago

"and banks just shrug their shoulders and dwindle into insignificance"

as if the people who run the world are just going to go away peacefully 🙄

you didn't answer my question in the slightest.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Because the system can’t print more bitcoin.

Hanshan 10mo ago

so early adopters become new 1%

yay

goatmeal 10mo ago

they don't have to print more bitcoin if 99% of users go through a financial institution and just own IOUs

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Well those people can get rugged, idgaf. I’ll keep mine in cold storage

goatmeal 10mo ago

okay. how many people do that? how many people on earth can squirrel away a UTXO twice a year? under unrealistic laboratory conditions it's still less than the population of germany

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Idk what you’re talking about. If everyone is using BTC, even if they are just reserve notes, then I will still be able to use real bitcoin

goatmeal 10mo ago

you are suffering from a delusion. none of your behaviors will protect you from the effects of debasement, fractional reserve banking, or UTXO discrimination until almost everyone else also adopts those exact same behaviors, and the technical limitations won't let them even if they decide to stop being stupid.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

How does bitcoin not protect against debasement? How will they debase bitcoin?

I don’t think fraction reserve bitcoin banks will succeed in competition with full reserve banks. There is no benefit

goatmeal 10mo ago

you trust custodians not to issue too many IOUs for absolutely no reason, even though they have done it and been caught an uncountable times already, and custodians also did the same thing to precious metals.

WHY does bitcoin protect anyone from anything? because it's supposed to let you bypass a financial institution. if almost all of the users don't want to do that or cannot do it, it is the same as speedrunning what happened to the gold standard. this can only be avoided IF a network upgrade enables scalable self-custody and enough of the userbase takes advantage of it.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

What happened with gold is that gold holders complied with government orders to relinquish their holdings. Do you think bitcoiner will do the same?

What do you mean “scalable self custody”? I could hold 1 million bitcoin on a single wallet if I had that much, and transaction fees are well below 1%

goatmeal 10mo ago

now you are just playing dumb. we both know what would happen if lots of people try to take possession of UTXOs at the same time. please don't try that stupid crap on me. and I'm not talking about the gold confiscations either but you can pretend I am if it helps you cope with bitcoin's excessive dependence on custodians.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Why would I take possession of a utxo if my BTC is in cold storage?

Comte de Sats Germain 10mo ago

These arguments are too speculative. I'm not convinced that batched transactions can't scale the thing, and I'm not convinced that transaction fees will be too high, and I'm not convinced that there will be such a huge need for block space. Fees can go lower than 1 sat/vbyte. The blocks are probably already too big, IMO. It seems darn near perfect... Longer block intervals would be nice, but I don't see anyone raising that issue yet. Focus on the privacy issue - maximize the good that comes from the criticism. Imagine if we get this perfect scenario, where the institutions get so married to Bitcoin that they can't back out when we suddenly all start running a version that has getter privacy. Push for that...

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

What good does an IOU do onchain or in a lightning channel? The whole point of the blockchain is to validate transactions and enable fungibility. You cannot inject an IOU into the blockchain

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

*to prevent fungibility

deimos 1y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

nicnym 1y ago

liquid > monero

Hanshan 1y ago

lol

are you serious bro?!

liquid is a fucking ghost town

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Liquid doesn't hide sender/receiver and it's anonymity set is abysmal

https://liquid.network/

S!ayer 1y ago

what is it?

Hanshan 1y ago

blockstreams sidechain with 1m blocks and Confidential Txs.

looks like there was 3 whole txs in the last block!

https://liquid.network/

S!ayer 1y ago

wtf is liquid?

ed

ede3d957... 1y ago

It's the answer Blockstream created after making BTC a small block chain.

GHOST 1y ago

D4DISTRICT 10mo ago

😂 ahh.. get off comic relief, after reading some really interesting notes on this thread. love it.

D4DISTRICT 10mo ago

*good comic relief damn these thumbs and the inability to edit

Comte de Sats Germain 1y ago

How would we get privacy at the base layer? Is it worth risking inflation that we can't see, or can it be done without that risk? And what about the utxo set bloat - I mean, I get that lightning reduces utxo bloat, but that's not a permanent fix, it will still get unmanageably bloated. Would love to hear some real ideas, and not just more influencer hand waving.

Hanshan 1y ago

RingCT to at least hide amounts?

its seriously battle tested and weird that any bitcoiner would consider it too radical.

everyone is already trusting cryptographic primitives more edgy anyway...

Comte de Sats Germain 1y ago

How do I learn more about it? I can google it if there's nothing specific I should look up.

Unfortunately I'm not techy enough to know these terms. All I really know is the economics, and whatever the influencers tell us about, which is usually pretty basic even for me.

Hanshan 1y ago

sorry not RingCT

just Confidential Transactions

Liquid has them implementated (as does Monero) so theyre a good source

https://blog.liquid.net/guide-to-confidential-transactions/

m4dire0701 1y ago

Btc maxis are nag as fuck. Fuck all them!

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Do you know how easy it would be to make LN as private as Tor?

OFFGRID 1y ago

I agree, it's all good for Bitcoin. I see use cases in some other things though. The privacy will get worked out. Other layers will improve. Remain vigilant.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

Well said.

The more people give up privacy in exchange for promises of wealth, the less likely they are to get either.

As Bitcoin continues to get adopted by banks and state interests, including it in their corrupted systems, your potential for accumulating wealth will go down or be slowed significantly, since you are playing against traders in a game you don't understand and are significantly disadvantaged in by design.

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CitizenPleb 1y ago

Just watched it over the weekend. Love that flick.

Mickey 1y ago

Just wait until miners only allow for KYC transactions in the blocks! That will be golden!

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

Bitcoin doesn’t give a fuck about what we all think, it is just doing its thing. It was always going to be coopted, it’s sound money in a corrupt fiat world. It is a powerful tool for everyone. It is the paradigm shift, bigger than any of us.

Fred Johnston 1y ago

It's okay to worry, but it's part of the fiat disease.

#Bitcoin is a life of it's own at this point. And, those that want to take advantage of it will get their hearts ripped out at some point.

Sounds harsh, but Bitcoin will self correct ANY corruption over time.

Gold was doing this but Gov/fiat learned to cheat. Any Layer 2 protocol that does NOT comply with Bitcoin will be wiped out as fast as the Tulip Mania.

We all would do well to sit back, buy Bitcoin DAILY (not the ETF). Move to COLD STORAGE every few grand. HODL 10+ years but learn skills to add REAL value to others (gain energy/Bitcoin) and spend a little Bitcoin to live. Super easy process, but very hard to stick with us humans.

Paul 1y ago

This is just a phase. ₿itcoin will eat the system from within. Nothing can stop it now. Governments, Corporations, and whales hoarding it is just Gresham’s Law playing out. It adds accelerant to the nuclear fire that is ₿itcoin. Everyone ₿ends the knee to money.

Hanshan 1y ago

hopium.

regulatory capture is a much more likely scenario that your weird ambiguous Trojan horse fantasy.

LibertyImp 1y ago

Yeah I tend to agree with you on this

Hanshan 1y ago

not such a retard after all 😉

LibertyImp 1y ago

Just give me a minute I'm just getting started 🤣

Paul 1y ago

Politicians do what the big money tells them to do. Who will own the money in the future? ₿itcoiners.

Hanshan 1y ago

the big money is starting to buy Bitcoin.

which is why its not a good idea to just ambiguously assert "Bitcoin will eat the system from within"

be specific. how exactly does that work? what are the risks and how are they compensated for?

Paul 1y ago

“Big money“, “the government”, basically it’s just individuals. And these individuals will continue to look after themselves as usual. The difference is this time the money is protected by unbreakable rules, not corruptible rulers. This makes all the difference. Fix the money, fix the world. It’s not just a trite meme.

Hanshan 1y ago

The way those individuals look after themselves Is by controlling the money

It's a trite meme because it supposes that they're just going to go away quietly

and stop extracting value from their position of a power

Presupposing success guarantees failure and its antithetical to the ethos that got us this far

2Pac 1y ago

You can’t regulate bitcoin you can only regulate your citizens. Bitcoin has no borders it cannot be contained within a single government structure. You cannot stop a key holder signing a tx.

Hanshan 1y ago

yeah i agree with that.

but the actual way people work is

they don't sign txs if they think they'll be separated from their family and have their shit taken from them.

even if its technically possible to get their tx mined somewhere.

so I'd call that de facto "regulating bitcoin"

2Pac 1y ago

Yes but this can’t and won’t happen simultaneously in every country. Maybe some governments will go this far but most will not.

Hanshan 1y ago

yeah the geographic arbitrage argument doesn't hold up great.

i addressed it in the above post.

basically it isn't necessary

and nobody can actually say with authority "most wont go this far"

and they don't need to anyway,

as if Bitcoin is going to disintermediate the bankers who run the *entire fucking world*

and they're just going to go away quietly...

not happening.

2Pac 1y ago

No the powerful people bankers and politicians in the world are just realizing they need to own bitcoin the smart ones will still be powerful because they adopted it. The economic incentive is too great to ignore anymore. This is just part of adoption we are past the innovator phase. We have to expect that people we don’t trust such as governments and institutions are going to adopt it for their own benefit not for ours. But by doing so we share a common interest in bitcoins success. This is the positive feedback loop that has allowed bitcoin to go from zero to trillions in 15 years.

Hanshan 1y ago

and so they realize its a useful thing for them

and will happily share with the common man and let him reap the benefits also?

TheBitcoinBattery 10mo ago

They don't get to make that decision, they can't stop it from being universally available, they can only make it harder for people within their jurisdictions to use it. Which would be to their disadvantage on the global stage.

Paul 1y ago

Exactly

Paul 1y ago

The government is just made up of people. These people will ₿end the knee eventually. It’s inevitable.

MoneRogue 1y ago

This is exactly what I've been saying. Monero >>>>> Future crypto spynet

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

How will you do chain analysis on LN and people using payjoin?

MoneRogue 1y ago

I feel like the State's attempts to incorporate crypto into itself will go along perfectly with legislation like the Crypto Framework Bill, Corporate Transparency Act, and the Bank Secrecy Act, as well as the KYC and AML measures that almost every exchange has at this point, to not only monitor who buys what, but to also give the State a monopoly on crypto. Even more reason to correct your status while you still can. #Bitcoin #Monero #Crypto

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Thomas 1y ago

Privacy is not absolute like time and energy. Bitcoin has the privacy of energy and time. You are in control.

WILLPOWER 1y ago

Pay Me In Monero ! 😁

Ava 11mo ago

Seems like a good time to repost this:

nostr:nevent1qqs0at69d7q6tspaesk4s05dhm4sjvad2f7utuse9s37svtdclayrag7zpshd

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

Monero is a mental masturbation.

Do you use it on a machine not tied to your identity?

Are you using it on your home network?

If you answered yes to one or both you don't understand what privacy is.

If you do accomplish both of these things, you can just use Bitcoins not tied to your identity which is easier to obtain & spend.

Brunswick 10mo ago

+followed+

Lets see how long Ava stays in my follow list 😬

Auxmos 10mo ago

😂

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Most dishonest shit I've heard. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

If you do accomplish both of these things, why would you potentially fuck that up by using then a transparent ledger? It would be even better for your privacy to use Monero on top of accomplioshing both those things.

Ceteris parabis Monero will always be better for privacy

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Literally all you have to do is lightning swap and then it’s private. Imagine the improvements in the next 5 years. Sure Monero is private but it’s still a shitcoin

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

No, you're both wrong & don't understand shit.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Alright find my LN transactions

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

It's the beginning of your actions that matter more than the end.

If your computer & internet connections are tied to your identity it really doesn't matter what the specifics are.

Either way LN is great for transacting in the real world.

Preserves privacy & decentralized ✅.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

You can buy kyc coin and then ln swap, send to a specific lightning wallet, and swap back to onchain.

You go from known wallet > known LN wallet > unknown LN wallet > unknown wallet

Though LN is not perfectly private due to efficiency being a main concern in payment routing. I assume LN could easily be extended to have Tor-like routing, which would solve this issue.

You could also just do payjoin or coin join (I can’t remember which one)

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

Yeah, you can do this but remember its the same as monero, all that data is being seen by your Internet connection regardless if specifics are being monitored they can still monitor activity by app usage.

You want assurances?

Go all the way.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

What about a vpn

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

Remember, with privacy there's only one way to be sure.

Using obfuscation technologies will never allow you to be sure.

Take out the unknowns & peace of mind will come from within instead of asking questions.

Also, there's levels to it.

You might not need this level of privacy.

Do what works for you just don't mislabel what you're doing - as that can be dangerous.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

How could you be more private?

Ava 10mo ago

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Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Monero is gay as fuck you silly liberal

Ava 10mo ago

You clearly know nothing about my political values. And there are plenty of other Bitcoiners, privacy advocates, and infosec professionals who would disagree with you. Have a good one.

nostr:nevent1qqs9fvsduuz8g7t52cl4sppprmqzj4alhrjpz5gwmjgtl3z2rcugedgpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qf6ugxyxkknket3kkdgu4k0fu74vmshawermkj8d06sz6jts9t4ksxpqqqqqqzyyl0tg

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Monero is literally gay. No one can refute that objective fact.

You have some weird spiritual beliefs, and that makes you liberal

Comte de Sats Germain 10mo ago

Bitcoin all the way, but if monero gets the job done, then what's the problem? And what's wrong with weird spiritual beliefs? The astonishing thing is, the weirdest ones seem the most correct.

Take a broader view - if the persistent badgering of the monero guys gets us to build the privacy we need, then it works for the greater good. Competition is good.

MoneRogue 10mo ago

Exactly. And an ancap world is about competition, right? So he should be okay with the concept of using Monero in addition to just Bitcoin.

Ava 10mo ago

Your say you are a Christian for peace in your bio, yet you are not representing either with this comment.

What does that make you?

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

Shut the fuck up, sir

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

What kind of dumbass reposts their own replies. You feel cool don’t you, mystic faggot

Ava 10mo ago

Spoken like a true Christian hypocrite.

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

You are a man, you zealot

Ancap Revolt 10mo ago

You think you can ascend while denying the nature of your existence? Good fucking luck with that, stay in the cycle.

MoneRogue 10mo ago

I need to hang this note up on my wall or wear it as a shirt.

satoshi 10mo ago

Every “Christian” is a hypocrite and every “patriot” a Russian shill

Bonk the disgusting bootlickers accordingly

MoneRogue 10mo ago

Any Bitcoiner will say these quotes are fake news.

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

Ava you're a virtue signaling machine.

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

Buy two tested faraday case.

Test it.

Buy device w cash, put it in faraday case.

Put your phone in faraday case.

Go to public wifi.

Use device.

Put it back in faraday case.

Go home.

Never use it at home.

Put your phone in faraday case before arriving to your destination of public wifi.

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

When you bring up identity you're confusing anonymity and privacy yet again.

Hanshan 10mo ago

if you're threat model is a Global Passive Adversary that observes all internet traffic than LN offers zero privacy.

otoh

monero still prevents the observer from seeing *what* monero is being sent to whom.

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

No, you're dishonest shill & can't explain shit

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

I won't argue against that. If you know what you're doing you can have strong privacy on Lightning.

I wouldn't recommend it to the average user though because of what is required.

Because of it's horrid UX in practice 90% aren't using Lightning privately. They're using custodians like Wallet of Satoshi, or to a lesser degree LSPs like ACINQ with Phoenix, that can surveil them.

Defaults and simplicity go a long way. And I don't even think Monero is particularly great in that regard, but relative to privacy with Lightning it is.

When the improvements in the next 5 years come to Lightning, and it gets more adoption, I'll reevaluate again

Hanshan 10mo ago

ill argue against that.

a simple swap is likely totally insufficient.

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

I assumed he meant swap to Lightning and then spend it on Lightning. But yea if it's just a naive swap back and forth that doesn't really do much.

And even then it's difficult to evaluate the level of privacy you gain on Lightning because it's hard to quantify (because of things like large routing nodes being able to map large areas of the network since many payments are going through them). General public doesn't have that info, but those large nodes do.

Hanshan 10mo ago

MONERO

you send nokyc monero from a mobile wallet tied to your identity

and if youre under targeted surveillance The Adversary probably knows you used monero. depending if you're connecting to a local node or not.

but they don't know how much your spent or where it went.

if you're NOT under targeted surveillance, its impossible to gain information about your monero usage in the future.

BITCOIN

if you use Bitcoin the same way, sending a nonKYC utxo from a wallet while under surveillance

they will know exactly what utxo you spent if The Adversary is surveiling you. obviously where it went and how much is known and can be correlated against other data.

additionally

if at ANY point in the future a utxo of yours is tied to IRL identity, your entire cluster of txs is clearly identified.

ShiShi21m 10mo ago

Pronouns in bio ✅

Pushing spirituality ✅

Price predictions ✅

Promotes monero ✅

Bitcoin is broken, here to fix it ✅

Too perfect of a meme character.

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Bud 10mo ago

I figure the whales will soon enough own most of the whole coins, then plebs will be competing for sats. Same as it ever was.

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