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woolcycle
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Great question. I would like to hear a detailed response to this question. #AskNostr

In this context, I feel there needs to be more clarity on obvious red flags or patent defects, otherwise everything just gets tarred with the same brush. e.g. I pay them no heed, but afaik meme coins can all be discounted? Similarly, nostr:npub1cn4t4cd78nm900qc2hhqte5aa8c9njm6qkfzw95tszufwcwtcnsq7g3vle disparaging other top 10 cryptos by comparison with #Bitcoin feels like strawmanning as, again afaik, most or all of those don't even purport to have a role in the financial freedom tech stack.

Finally, note that I am not in any way looking to "open the floodgates" and don't have a problem with large swathes of non-BTC crypto being legitimately categorised as shitcoins. Currently, my only goal is to ensure that #Nimiq payment coin gets a fair hearing with regard to its potential role in the financial freedom tech stack.

nostr:npub1kuy0wwf0tzzqvgfv8zpw0vaupkds3430jhapwrgfjyn7ecnhpe0qj9kdj8 here is one for you: If I am exploring another L1 (as complementary day-to-day * user-friendly, non-custodial* payment solution) alongside my study of and engagement with #Bitcoin, do I still qualify as a real Bitcoiner? #AskNostr https://www.curiousdk.com/p/a-real-bitcoiner

Indeed, fiat for me too, day-to-day. I've only done a handful of crypto transactions, most of them were BTC LN phone-to-phone at the local Bitcoin meetup, to support the group or as thanks for saving my skin!

Thanks, but I am more interested in the day-to-day transacting side of things as potentially a better protection of my freedom than hoarding!

Okay, but what is next to #Bitcoin? What is the closest shitcoin to #Bitcoin? #AskNostr

Also true. I read your response to nostr:nprofile1qqsxrqwquvwd72dwam7274jcl2sukjk3md5a8z62jwx04g8asyplv7cpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt4w35ku7thv9kxcet59e3k7mgprys8wumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnsdaehgetj9ecxcctrv5q35amnwvaz7tm5dpjkvmmjv4ehgtnwdaehgu339e3k7mgjjwl7d right after I posted lol. They still pay a bunch of upkeep costs in fiat, as well. It's a real pickle

I've had frustrating conversations with people recently who have survivorship bias from living in the US. Amongst them, there's an utter lack of what an egregious political incursion that the COVID lockdowns were and they have no inclination to become resistant to those incursions. That led me to adopting freedom tech

As for sound money, people are already in talks about fractional reserve schemes with Bitcoin, with all of the rug risk that comes with them. From what I know, that won't last forever with a supply cap but people will keep trying so long as there's demand for it

I feel if you are into freedom tech, you need to grasp the nettle on the potential weaknesses of #Bitcoin as well as its undoubted strengths, plus also explore all possible avenues for building the most censorship-resistant financial freedom tech stack. This short video is relevant in this context. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA40oyDVtqs

Replying to Avatar Guy Swann

Mining has not centralized, it has decentralized over time. Mining *pools* have centralized (though on the surface it appears more distributed, but it isn’t unfortunately) but this is a networking problem, not a PoW problem.

Again, the problem is fundamental, not surface layer. PoS consensus cannot come with a ā€œstakeā€ that is determined by the outcome of that very same consensus. And PoS also has a fundamental centralizing force because there is no competition against stakers. You cannot remove or compete against their staking share unless *they* sell their coins. So the wealthiest stakers will always grow their portion faster than everyone else in the network. It centralizes far, far worse and more systemically. PoW does still just have the natural, physical economies of scale that make decentralization an uphill battle, but that’s not something inherent to PoW operation specifically.

I don’t know anything about that random token, but I’d bet very confidently that they have centralized checkpoints as part of consensus. Every other PoS model has it for obvious reasons.

Simply put, there’s no comparison here. PoW isn’t perfect or without challenges, but PoS isn’t even in the running. It’s centralized by default and can’t reach consensus in a decentralized fashion in the case of a network failure, communication lapse, or split in the network of any serious depth. Like I said, it’s the facade of decentralization that exists only at the very tip of the chain.

#Bitcoin can reach independent, untrusted consensus from block 100 (or block 1 even) if necessary without ANY coordination simply by verifying the PoW. No PoS can expect to even go 100 blocks back from right now without huge problems, or possibly even hitting signed checkpoints from a centralized trusted source, let alone years back or all the way back to its first day of operation.

Thanks, this is fantastic engagement from someone of your standing - even if a lot of it is not what I necessarily wanted to hear!

Can I ask if you feel there is utility in pitching protagonists for PoW versus PoS against each other in a broadcast or conference setting? If nothing else, it might provide a contrast to more routine "preaching to the choir" type content. Cutting to the chase, do you feel able and willing to put the case for PoW versus PoS and I would do my best to hunt around for the strongest proponent in the Nimiq team to go up against you? (No worries if not, just trying to stir things up a bit on an otherwise quiet Sunday afternoon!)

Thanks for this interesting response, which I will admit is somewhat over my head. With regard to #Bitcoin, I frequently hear concerns expressed regarding mining centralisation and my understanding is that the pressure towards centralisation only increases with each successive halving. I think we can agree we have come a long way since Hal Finney & co. were apparently mining #Bitcoin using a CPU - not a GPU, a CPU.

By contrast, the hardware and energy requirement for running a Nimiq PoS validator is much, much lower. So I am interested in whether this might lead to greater decentralisation that centralised PoW mining.

Replying to Avatar Guy Swann

The problem with successful deterrents is that there is no clear connection between it and the outcome. It must be inferred from deductive reasoning.

This makes it incredibly easy for people to convince themselves of its irrelevance, or to claim ā€œit’s just different now,ā€ or to ascribe the success to something at the surface/social layer that is completely ineffective on its own.

In essence, the success of a deterrent sews the seeds of its ultimate removal through ignorance and simply forgetting the real nature of the world.

A good example that I think hasn’t succumbed to this yet is #Bitcoin mining - People in the future might start to say that the state was never really a threat, or that nobody cares and we all just want to work together, because it simply hasn’t been successfully attacked. When really the fact that attacking it is such a huge cost while even the degree of success is so severely limited, that it’s simply smarter to place their resources on the other parts of the battlefield (own more of it, regulate it, control the exchanges, attack developers, etc)

Just a weekend musing. Seemed interesting since we seem to have been brushing the edge of this problem with the individual right to bear arms for a while now. The people have become incredibly naive and complacent. The lack of a mass killing of the population over the past 100 years (which is actually *extremely* unique) is just kinda hand waved away like ā€œthat’s just how it is now.ā€

I feel that 2020 woke up a ton of people with a small preview into the horrible nature of most people and how quickly they can turn on common sense and human decency. But it’s just crazy to think that often times the *most* successful methods/technologies may very well be the *hardest* to see as successful. I wonder if the same will happen again with sound money in 100 years? šŸ¤”

Nimiq is currently undergoing a switch from PoW to PoS. It could be interesting for those who have a good grasp of the role of #Bitcoin mining in securing the network to compare and contrast with Nimiq's forthcoming implementation of PoS.

Have a look at Nimiq, which complements rather than competes with #Bitcoin. We need to be exploring all avenues to build the ideal financial freedom tech stack. https://www.nimiq.com/

Strategy for what, though? Posts like this make me feel that #Bitcoin has wandered a long way from the original peer to peer self-custodial ideal. Which increases the imperative to explore alternative solutions.

Replying to Avatar BTC Prague

Does this not risk BTC Prague ending up like an echo chamber, all the speakers simply preaching to the choir? Where is the avenue through which fresh ideas can come to #Bitcoin from the wider financial freedom tech stack? #asknostr