Thanks, I do get that, it's just a lot of metaphors going on all at once. You've got nuts (and not just cashew nuts), you've got metal coins, you've got paper cash, you've got weather, you've got electricity... For new users I can imagine it can be an utterly bewildering experience being ping-ponged around from one metaphor to another.

Impressively clean deck, hats off.

On a total tangent, I never liked the term "melt" because it breaks the nut metaphor. I have no idea what can be done about this.

The A2A protocol sort of does all that (agent interop, agent identity, auth, etc.). Plus it's a ground-up design for agent comms. There's no native payment but there are payment rails, and you could just pop in a cashu string into a relevant json request (there are suitable custom fields) and that's payment sorted one way. Nostr I dunno, you trade a lot for some redundancy, but AI agents aren't dissidents.

IMO Nostr is good for a lot of workplace stuff, but not agent comms.

It's about digitising admiration for gold. The more you're willing to give up to show this admiration, the more admiration you've proven that you have. Which is ridiculous of course. But anyway that's what it's about, not digitising and trading gold itself but digitising and trading admiration for gold.

What's the general zeitgeist on Ordinals here on Nostr? Silly bloat? Elegant utility? Something in between? Depends on what they're used for?

#asknostr

I'm all for dunking on Prada, but that's probably not a bad use case for one of those PoA chains. There are multiple competing luxury brands on it I'm guessing, they trust each other to a degree, but the volume, legal stuff and whatnot mean you need a single source of truth and immutability after approval. So blockchain probably beats the headache of trying to manage everyone's access in some multi-tenancy cloud database environment.

The way those secure NFC tags (the ones inside the bag) are resistant to cloning is also kinda neat.

But yeah, in spirit it's obviously a multi-tenancy private database, that goes without saying.

Quality analogy

How are DVMs envisioned to work in a pure outbox context? If users only publish to their small set of outbox relays, and DVMs aren't aware of these relays, then DVMs won't see the job requests.

If a user follows a DVM beforehand, then okay. But I'd assume in most cases it'll be DVMs discovering users via job requests, not users discovering DVMs beforehand. (Seems a key function of a job request is for the user to learn what DVMs are out there and to see what each one comes back with.)

#asknostr #dvms

Nice, how does it work for replies?

It often becomes a case of complexity making openness irrelevant though.

I don't know how you get around that, besides trying your best to keep the algos simple (which can defeat the purpose) or letting users choose between different back boxes.

It begins.

Sigh, have you relapsed?

Lol. Although on that note, while I'm super skeptical of gratis free I'm also a *little* skeptical of libre free. That line in the song Me and Bobby McGee, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose", it kinda hits hard.

For those concerned with a better internet, the scariest word in the dictionary should be "Free".

It's the protocol also I think, protocols have minds and intentions of their own. We currently have this incentive context wherein those who earn money from operating relays can earn more money when those who run free relays get spammed. And also where free relays will have to pay out to various API providers to deal with spam (visual stuff is LLM intensive), which means an urgent need for monetisation. And what do free relays have to sell besides user data and user attention? Or if the thing to sell is something in a platform paired with that free relay then the relay becomes a loss leader, which is its own dynamic.

I've spend a lot of time in both Hong Kong and Singapore. Hong Kong got the local housing incentives all wrong, while Singapore got them all right. That changes everything.

Yeah I thought so. Can you even do milli-sats in Cashu?

This for sure! Curious, for text-only chat messages does 1 sat per message cover the AWS (or whatever) and other associated costs once you've factored them all in? Or it will if you hit certain scale? Or is it more like a symbolic amount for now?

Although to be fair if you're investing in Nostr at this stage you need a serious altruistic streak of one sort or another. Private equity running Toys "R" Us into the ground this is not.

One-zillion percent.

Had a good coffee chat about this the other day. I'm now becoming convinced that Nostr is most useful as a social layer for Cashu, not for Bitcoin directly. That is to say your keypair's main job is providing a Cashu token lock (you may have a few such keypairs you give out to others who want to lock tokens to you) and Nostr allows social interaction surrounding that use case.

So a kind of chatroom for each p2pk key you hold.

Let's take users with a single daily driver app as our monetisation base. From numbers shared by Primal cross referenced with Nostr.band stats I'd say about half of these users are Primal users.

Primal has a proper subscription offering, which is fair, they offer what no other client offers in terms of UX, wallet integration, spam mitigation, backups, etc. That cache relay of theirs opens up business opportunities, it just does. So their subscription offers value. And you can pay via Apple Pay, which always helps sales.

Of those users not using Primal as their daily driver, most use an app that doesn't have a subscription offering, or has one that's not as compelling as Primal's on aggregate, and that is framed more along lines of support, for the cause, help out the team and such (versus tangible UX things).

Let's say Primal converts its daily-driver users to income at a rate 3 to 4 times the other apps. (I'd not be surprised if it was even higher, but anyway). That's your 80%. (There are also the paid relays, but even if you put that revenue all to the non-primal side it's not really going to move the needle.)

Not saying Primal is in the black, far from it I'm sure. Just a comment on market share. It is what it is.

What are these 10 commandments that are more important than a no-fuss financially self-sustaining relay layer across the board?

This is the challenge architecting in money after the fact. The thing is, money will always find a way in, and if you don't architect it in at the protocol level then it'll flow in elsewhere, as it pleases, via advertising, consolidation. It's fluid dynamics.

Look at Primal, almost no spam. Is it a coincidence that probably 80% (my estimate) of all revenue on Nostr (as in funds that could be declared to the tax agent as income) is gong to Primal? It's not.

Anything can be at the protocol level if agreed. That's what a protocol is, an agreed set of instructions.

Totally can.

1 sat is the minimum. If you use 5 sat stamp relays then it'll be 5000 sats.

(And actually 1000 sats is a pretty high price to bomb 1000 replies.)

E-cash should have been baked into Nostr at the start.

I'd even go so far as to say E-cash should have been baked into the entire internet at the start, would have saved us all all of headache, and the concept goes back to the 1980s.

Yup, P2PK-locked cashu string in every individual event. And a network-wide minimum of 1 Sat at core NIP level.

Ecash stamps across the board. No stamp, no delivery. Keychat is from the future and was sent back in time to battle Ultron.

If you're in a group it should be on you to add the group mint. That should be part of group onboarding. If you don't add that mint then I don't see that as any different to not adding a LN address here.

If you take the view that Nostr doesn't scale outside of a small world context then what happens in a big world context (i.e the current wilds of Nostr, even though to be honest here is still like a group in spirit) ins't indicative of much.

No, my argument is simply that the currency should pass the grocery store test.

If we keep Sats as Sats and rename the whole currency as Sats, that's fine. (It's what'll happen anyway over time.)

If we keep the currency as Bitcoin and rename sats as Bitcoin, that's fine too.

Both options work. Take your pick.

Lots of work going on I agree, but key stats are showing as lower now than at this point last year. As in Nostr looks to have shrunk.

Yup. We've evolved our nature to keep our species from going extinct, the idea that we just hack it like that is goofballs.