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JackTheMimic
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Hoch die anarchie. CTO at Sovreign.io

I don't think anyone actually understands what the threat is nor what kind of applications quantum computing accomplishes. Besides if quantum computing cracks both ECDSA and SHA-256, literally every system breaks. This is the equivalent of the "What if the government detonates an EMP, how will you use bitcoin then?" argument. Yeah, I guess the perfect money wouldn't help if the world blows up. Lol

By definition black markets are not permissioned. If I told you "Hey here's a thing just like bitcoin but private" what's your first question?

-How is it just like Bitcoin but private? Does it have a supply cap? Does it have a similar network size? Market capitalization? Auditability?

Since the answer to all of those questions is No, then you would say, That was a lie right?

Monero's marketing is based on a lie. It is just a token that has some neat tricks to obscure sender, recipient, and amount. It does not have all of the properties necessary to be a good money technology. Namely scarcity. Even with scarcity, the network (and anonymity set) is too small for more market capitalization.

So, the overall point is Black markets are good because of the freedom and anonymity. The answer is not to then use the currency popular to the biggest black market (which by the way would be Ramen noodle packets because prisons have the largest black markets and that's what they use). The answer is to make markets more free and anonymous by making authority obsolete in a market, which is what bitcoin does. Anonymity comes when people use it as it is an opt in feature since the beginning of trade. (Knowing you trade partner and all that)

Replying to Avatar Jimmy Bond

"How? explain the mechanism than allows any nation or actor to literally disallow the use of a UTXO."

Arrest anyone who accepts it without turning it over to the government. Pretty simple.

"Monero has VERY little monetary premium, which is the point of a money. If I secretly trade literal pieces of shit, YOU'RE RIGHT! it's untraceable! but no one will use that as a financial instrument."

This comes off as completely delusional in the face of darknet markets completely switching over to XMR and anecdotal stories of companies like Guns N Bitcoin who said when they started accepting monero, people were spending more monero than bitcoin and credit cards combined.

"All assets need a final settlement layer that is auditable to a layman."

First of all, why?

Second, do you think a layman can audit the bitcoin blockchain?

"the olds of the future will be no more inclined to use monero than the olds of today are."

You mean old people? Why do you think they would be more likely to use bitcoin? Because they can put it on their retirement balance sheet? Are they really "using" bitcoin?

"The reason you think that XMR is secure is that there is not as much scrutiny upon it."

There have been some pretty sizable bounties to be able to trace a monero payment.

"Dudes with bad OpSec are still getting ganked by the feds. So, what makes you think the average user on XMR in your fantasized future would ever use it correctly."

This is just cope. Not worthy of a reply.

"The point being Bitcoin has the monetary power, momentum, and adoption to be THE global asset layer."

I get the sense that your real driving motivation is NGU, not that you'd ever admit it.

"the subsequent layers are where you focus your security and anonymity hurdles. onion or garlic routing on lightning, making a fungible second layer protocol, but they all use Bitcoin at base because it IS the money."

I never said bitcoin isn't monero. I don't have a fanatical hatred of bitcoin the way you do of monero. In fact, I don't hate it at all. I just think there are a lot of people with blinders on. The future of LN is custodial. There's no way around that. The math makes it impossible to work otherwise.

"I tackle this from an economics perspective. Market actors don't what to hide their activity when it comes to assets."

That's retarded.

"It's the quicker faster deals that need the privacy protects you guys obsess over...on a public forum, btw."

I said lightning is better for fast payments. You can't use monero in any sizable, in person, business, for the same reason you can't use on-chain bitcoin. Too slow.

I maintain my position. You are either being dishonest or myopic.

Man, I should really just quote everything you said piecemeal, and write the riveting rebuttal:

"That's cope." Or "That's retarded."

It really saves time in the thinking department, thanks.

How would they know who accepts it? (through the protocol, not meatspace.)

You can also disable recall by installing your choice of Linux Distribution.

Yeah, I didn't know if you guys collected manure at all. I didn't mean be a factory but, more so if you had excess fuel, here's a use case type thing.

Points 1&2- yeah custodians can rug you, this can happen with literally anything(yes with XMR)

Points 3&5- if you cheat, your channel peer gets compensation. If they cheat and you don't catch them for 2 WEEKS using a lightning wallet, watchtower, lightning node software, yes you got your money stolen. That seems reasonable because if you do catch them they risk node access, all of their channel funds, and reputation.

Point 4- yeah, don't let people use your computer and route over tor.

Yes, I conceded that if you try to steal your peer's funds, you DO lose your funds. My bad, I should have stated that caveat.

Force-closes are extreme circumstances. and the HTLC has a lock to avoid scams. giving someone 2 weeks to see they were being cheated is a feature not a bug. in most cases the collaborative close is used and you get on chain funds as soon as the txn is confirmed. it would be much quicker if threat actors weren't a concern in the real world. having the entire financial record on chain at the rate cash or credit is used would need storage the size of a Colosseum to verify. keeping rapid transactions off chain for velocity and on chain for settlement is the best way to keep a system decentralized.

lol, and again, read the thread. some force closed channels were returned to their on chain address. the other 4 channels in question were still open and active channels that were later collaboratively closed. and a nice telegram scammer to throw into the mix. no funds were lost.

did you read the thread or just the headline? no funds were lost. they returned to the on chain address when the channel force-closed. (By the way Alby was a custodial node service so, not a great example of a sovereign use of lightning.)

usually distraction from military activitiess. Syria is likely. The domestic healthcare charade is another distraction. No one was that upset about health insurance before that guy got popped. now, everyone has a very large diatribe about the ways insurance screws you over. has the "a threat to our democracy" vibe.

cool, link me one instance and I'll conceded. But technically there's no way a lightning contract "loses" funds. You simply force close the channel, the funds return to your on chain address. What I find is people like you don't use things correctly, don't have access to your on chain addresses, you don't have a self hosted node active, or have watchtowers for any counterparty risk. You say things like:

I lost my Bitcoin when I used lightning!

"what happened?"

well Ididn'tb write my on chain private key down, I deleted my wallet then my channel partner force closed while I was trying to move funds!

-So in short YOU did that yourself. You threw away the combination to your vault and expected to be able to access it.