Nostr Web Client

Does this result in effectively 3 separate pools? Or you somehow reconcile the differences to split rewards proportionally between miners on all 3 configurations?

plebkitchen 2y ago 💬 1

Hi, maybe a simple question. How do you switch the profile/filter? In your Braiins OS. Thanks

Baz. 2y ago

"These are not separate pools! Whenever a miner using OCEAN finds a block, all of OCEAN's miners receive their share of the block earnings, even those mining a different template. This is a major step toward fully decentralized mining: OCEAN returns control to you, allowing you the option to mine the transactions you want without losing the benefits of pooled mining."

https://ocean.xyz/docs/templateselection

MF_HODL 2y ago

Interesting, I guess I like this approach…

But if I were a miner simply optimizing for the most profitable block template, I might not want to split profits evenly with miners who consistently omit the top most profitable txs. Plus the ppl optimizing for profit are the only ones paying a pool fee 😂.

I guess the market will decide if this is acceptable.

Baz. 2y ago

Yeah. It would be interesting to know the splits between the templates

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

The alternative is a centralized system

MF_HODL 2y ago

Centralized on what layer?

If pool decentralization is your goal, new (or revived) pools constructing blocks with low rewards isn’t going to attract any meaningful hash power. It’s simply not economically rational for anyone involved.

More pools competing on rewards, features, and specialization is the only way.

If block template decentralization is your goal, then let’s focus on finishing the SV2 spec for block negotiation, and make it easy for pools & miners to use. The big pools will happily pass that regulatory risk off to the individual miners.

Rob 2y ago 💬 1

Option 4 - Empty blocks only, to fairly filter all transactions

de

nobody 2y ago

Sounds like a politician

Joe Cizin 2y ago

Why ?

Baz. 2y ago

Some people don't like knots, but they do like the rest of Ocean's decentralised philosophy.

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

The whole point of OCEAN is to decentralize mining. This is just the next logical step

Baz. 2y ago

I assume that I can switch between block templates and there is no penalty to my rewards acquired so far?

Baz. 2y ago

I found the answer:

"These are not separate pools! Whenever a miner using OCEAN finds a block, all of OCEAN's miners receive their share of the block earnings, even those mining a different template. This is a major step toward fully decentralized mining: OCEAN returns control to you, allowing you the option to mine the transactions you want without losing the benefits of pooled mining."

https://ocean.xyz/docs/templateselection

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

Correct, fees are per share submitted

Baz. 2y ago

Thanks

Baz. 2y ago 💬 1

This is a big development for Ocean

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chancellor 2y ago

Unless this pool starts hitting blocks, like multiple blocks per week, I won't be able to continue contributing hash rate to it.

TKay 2y ago

The pool is still relatively small. More need to join.

chancellor 2y ago

Agreed but I'm small too lol

TKay 2y ago

Same. I’m pointing my nerdminer somewhere else if we don’t hit blocks 😅

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

NerdMiners can't mine

TKay 2y ago

Really? You mean power wise or there is something functionally that doesnt let them mine? Really interested to learn.

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

They couldn't have found a block in 2009 even.

They're far less than a CPU miner

TKay 2y ago

Yeah, I understand that, it’s just a dumb display.

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

Working on it

Nyoro~n 2y ago

My node will validate and propagate blocks from templates 1 and 2 marginally faster 🫡

ODELL 2y ago

APPRECIATE YOU 🫡

Bryan 2y ago

🫂🫂🫂

TeslaLiberty 2y ago 💬 1

What is the difference between 1 and 2 ?

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NoOne 2y ago

1 you use knots node

2 you use bitcoin core modified to enforce that inscriptions respect the extra data limit configured in the node. (Currently there is a bug where idiots creating inscriptions can put 3 MB data in the extra data even if you specifically configured your node to relay only 80bytes)

Erik 2y ago

PV 🤙

Josua Schmid 2y ago

What is spam in the context of Bitcoin? Isn’t fee amount the only determinator?

dr.fred 2y ago

anything but cash is spam

Josua Schmid 2y ago

So you mean secondary use

1. as persistent storage (e.g. fake Multisig)

2. as publication medium (e.g. for time-stamping)

3. as general smart contract (e.g. time-locks)

…?

I particularly like the time-locks and wouldn’t consider these spam even if it means we carry them around.

b2

Monkey Pox Denier 2y ago

So the message in bitcoins first block made it a spam and it shouldn't be mined today by your standards? Interesting.

There have been inscriptions literally since the first block....

Luke Dashjr 2y ago 💬 1

Wrong

dr.fred 2y ago 💬 1

do you use bitcoin as p2p cash?

OceanSlim 2y ago

I guess lightning channels are spam then huh?

dr.fred 2y ago

lightning is a differnt network, a different technology

centralized, operated by corporations

do your own research

OceanSlim 2y ago

None of what you said is incorrect. So you're saying we should censor channel opens because they're spam by your definition. I just want to make sure I have this clear.

By your definition, Bitcoin will never scale because any attempt at an L2 isn't "cash" and should be censored?

dr.fred 2y ago

lightning shares only the fiat price with bitcoin

it has nothing else with bitcoin in common. a different architecture, a centralized network operated by corporations which only works if it becomes more and more centralized. they allow you to open nodes but because of the architecture all of the small nodes will have to run through the big nodes which are operated by corporations, the same criminals who are doing all hoaxes and fake diseases.

you even need to 'exchange' lightning into bitcoin paying high fees

OceanSlim 2y ago

Again... I don't disagree with you here. But it does scale Bitcoin... Just not in the way that we as Bitcoiners would like it to.

Seems like you're avoiding my questions though...

dr.fred 2y ago

you are unable to debate because you are obviously in a cult.

name one fact i have posted which is wrong and prove why it is wrong.

you can't

OceanSlim 2y ago

Can you read? I'm highly critical of lightning... I've said I agreed with what you're saying. Then I asked you questions and you haven't clarified or answered any of them. Looks like the pot calling the kettle black to me... What are we even debating? You haven't made a claim I disagree other than censoring certain transactions, and I asked you if channel opens should be censored to clarify YOUR position. My position is clear. Don't censor any transactions.

Josua Schmid 2y ago

I appreciate your calm.

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

Lightning is cash too

OceanSlim 2y ago

In your opinion... That's the point. Spam, cash, VALUE is subjective. Satoshi already solved the spam problem with proof of work.

Also, I would agree, lightning Bitcoin is mostly used as cash.

dr.fred 2y ago

centralized lightning with its seperate network, has nothing to do with satoshi nakamoto

read his whitepaper

OceanSlim 2y ago

Wow I'm not talking about lightning... I'm talking about transactions on main net.

Keep simping though.

dr.fred 2y ago 💬 2

bitcoin has very high fees that is why it is unuseable for payments.

monero or litecoin have extremely low fees and are used for payments providing privacy. monero the best privacy and ultralow fees.

95

NoOne 2y ago

The problem is the lack of moral compass.

You are saying that an idiot with an infinite amount of money can destroy the Bitcoin network or at least make it useless just because he can pay for it. Congratulations.

OceanSlim 2y ago

Let me ask you something. Is there an infinite amount of Bitcoin? No? Then he will run out of money.

OceanSlim 2y ago

Bitcoin doesn't have or need a moral compass to work. It's a computer program. Bitcoin doesn't care.

rieger_san 2y ago

Exactly, but Luke thinks he can decide how people have to use bitcoin. That’s why he call it „spam“ or „bug“ or „vulnerability“

Derek Ross 2y ago

Thanks for more user choices 🥹

TKay 2y ago

For people who understand this better. When mining, isn’t it better to stick with a template for a relatively longer time, and not keep adding removing transactions from it?

This question has nothing to do with the options above.

I was just wonder, because when I look at the Ocean dashboard, the template changes every second. And for some reason I feel it is more probably to hit a block if the template doesnt change for say 3 minutes.

Might be completely wrong but that’s why I’m asking.

Pip the WoT guy 2y ago 💬 4

I think you are wrong because the probability of finding a valid block at trial number N should follow a Geometric Distribution.

The Geometric Distribution has the property of being "memoryless".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 2y ago

Correct, it makes no difference. This indifference is part of what makes a hash function a "cryptographic hash function". The distribution is nearly gaussian, close enough to call it random.

Pip the WoT guy 2y ago

you probably wanted to say uniform distribution.

Hash function have the design goal of inducing a probability distribution on their image which is closer to a uniform distribution as possible.

So the probability that h(X) = k is the same for every k.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 2y ago

continuous uniform distribution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_distribution#Absolutely_continuous_probability_distribution which is commonly associated with gaussian normal distributions.

of course it's discrete integers but continuous implies total randomness since all bits are at play and not any holes in it or symmetries.

Pip the WoT guy 2y ago

I don't understand why you say Gaussian, when it actual fact is uniform.

Also, it's discrete and not continuous, because the Image of all hash functions is discrete (countable infinity of rational numbers).

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 2y ago

If you found a distribution pattern in a hash function, it's no longer a cryptographic hash function.

There is no such thing in the real world as continuous, it is impossible to measure or quantify. Saying that this disqualifies the use of "gaussian" for a random distribution over a finite field is not a tenable position due to the nature of computation.

The expression "cryptographic hash function" itself implies apparent continuity of distribution. As soon as the discontinuity is found in the distribution its security is busted.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 2y ago

The other thing that you can't say either is that it's not deterministic, because without determinism the hash function is not useful.

Pip the WoT guy 2y ago

Yeah yeah, in this we agree. I was just lazy.

One should say:

X is a random variable representing the choice of a message at random (under probability distribution PX).

Then h(X) is a random variable, that induce a different probably distribution bla bla.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 2y ago

it's super magical stuff anyway. non-crypto people don't get it.

Pip the WoT guy 2y ago

Yes, no such thing as continuity in the real world, real number are not physically real.

Buuut, they are very useful for making computations easiers.

I never disqualified the utility of the gaussian distribution, I simply pointed out the obvious that Gaussian != Uniform

> the expression "cryptographic hash function" itself implies apparent continuity of distribution.

No, it implies apparent uniformity of disitribution.

Continuity is another (topological) property.

f^(-1) (A) is an open set for every open set A.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 2y ago

gaussian is continuous uniform distribution. aliasing is an inherent property of finite fields. if this error of precision says it's not gaussian than what use is the expression "gaussian distribution" anyway?

perhaps ergodicity is a more accurate expression, since this doesn't carry baggage of theoretical and impossible things with it?

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

The template has to be at least subtly different for every hash (which a mining chip does billions of every second)

Landy 2y ago

I’ve never heard of this before, why would the template have to change each hash?

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

The hash is the same for the same data

TKay 2y ago

Doesn’t changing the nonce render a new hash?

Landy 2y ago

This is what I thought so if it’s incorrect then I’m happy to learn the difference

SMS 2y ago

I have

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

And makes it a different template, albeit only slightly

TKay 2y ago

Interesting. I didn’t know that. Thank you.

OceanSlim 2y ago 💬 4

But... Miners can decide what pool they mine with. So WTF is your point here? Or is there not one and you just want to virtue signal to Bitcoiners?

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XeqT Monetary Freedom (∞/21M) + (₿+⚡) = 🧡 2y ago

There's a lot of nuance, in this whole conversation. I think Bitcoin Mechanic did a great job explaining Ocean's position, in his conversation with Preston Push.

ck 2y ago

Can’t tell if I should consider this bending the knee or if it always was the plan to offer different templates 🤷‍♂️

95

NoOne 2y ago

The plan is to give miners the control over the templates they want to use, the specific ASIC that find the block will choose the template and him alone, but this is only possible with Stratum V2.

While Stratum V2 is not there, they are offering you to choose from pre-stablished block templates.

mykopikid 2y ago

I fully support ocean mining

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SMS 2y ago

Never.

That cunt better choose life.

🤫

Golbez9🔩🤘 2y ago

Good luck lol

Fiat Shenanigans 🤡🌎 2y ago

Include the spam, or reject the spam?

The choice is yours!

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hit with a hint of s 2y ago

Can i use bitaxe with ocean? Does ocean support solo mining and if in pool, can I get whatever little sats through LN?

rieger_san 2y ago 💬 1

Your fees incentive miners to do what you think how bitcoin should be used.

What a fucking clown 🤡 show!

. 2y ago

lol

negr0 2y ago

Se terminó el bloqueo y en spam 👏👏👏👏✨✨✨✨ viva la libertad 🗽

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mutatrum 2y ago

Opposite templates, which pick up specific TXs with lower than optimal fees:

* Anti OFAC

* LN channel opens/closes

* Coinjoins/mixer TXs

Have people mine blocks that help their use cases.

The real prophet Muhhammed who invented islam aka False Idol #1 2y ago

"Anti OFAC" literally none of their templates are OFAC compliant so all of them meet this criteria.

"LN channel opens/closes" These will also be included in every available template.

" Coinjoins/mixer TXs" There is no standard for these TXs so protocols like whirlpool that override the datacarrier to announce to the p2p layer that they are doing coinjoins may unfortunately be filtered out however should be possible through option 3 which is unmodified.

Luke Dashjr 2y ago

Core+Antispam also shouldn't have the whirlpool issue FWIW

The real prophet Muhhammed who invented islam aka False Idol #1 2y ago

Ok, my bad on that

mutatrum 2y ago

The general idea was templates that includes as many TXs in a specific category, so they'll be mined earlier and cheaper. It's a stupid idea, but if people want more template options, this is going into the opposite direction of filtering.

The real prophet Muhhammed who invented islam aka False Idol #1 2y ago

block #3 very soon

hellasbit 2y ago

It will be great a pool with zero fees and LN payments from a non-profit organization on a ''.org'' domain.

Korhag 2y ago

That’s great to hear and sincerely hope they won’t be stopped by government. The only thing I can’t help thinking about is if they launched a few weeks late but in this state: “okay miners will choose if they want to include inscriptions or not” there would be no drama and disappointment but I guess they wanted to live through this discussion to lay down their arguments.

This might served to explain ordinals and BRC20 as a spam due to a bug. Which is a legit argument I believe.

Lastly maybe the Public Relations guy should be the Bitcoin Mechanic instead of Luke. Even though Luke may have the purest of intentions I think its safe to say he has not the best communication skills.

Swerz 2y ago

Miners have template choice. Greate move, thank you for helping secure the BTC network and a great compromise. Love the pool!!

Jason the Original 2y ago

Big spike in hash rate.

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Cody 2y ago

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