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Electricity is certainly the most fungible energy mode that we possess at the moment, but all of the current input materials for its production and transportation are still mined from the ground and regulated to varying degrees

Brunswick 1y ago

Good. That's not my point. You can't fuel your gasoline engine with lumps of coal, and you can't fill your tank with natural gas. You can burn those things and make electricity.

f9

Darin 1y ago

Many power plants run on jet fuel, diesel fuel and oil.

Brunswick 1y ago

Fine with me

47 1y ago

i shit on ev’s regularly.

NostrNaught 1y ago

Electricity is like a decentralized exchange...

₿eth 1y ago

I’m going to chime in on this one. I don’t think that people that hate on EV’s are hating on the electricity part perse, but I’m not discrediting that by any means. It’s the process of completion, the cost, the replacement (battery) cost, the inefficiency in time of travel when said battery needs charging.

Add to that, areas with distances and temperatures that aren’t super accommodating to the output of an EV?

I dunno Brunswick, I just don’t know.

Brunswick 1y ago

Only people that don't own an EV complain about the battery. My battery will go 1,000,000 miles and I never worry about it. I drive through blizzards, -40 temperatures, no problem. Yes, you get less range, but really how often do you need to do that? Also, every complaint is bitching about temporary problems and old tech. The 400mi battery solves all of it, they have been churning those out for years amd they are only going to get better. I love driving around for 1/5 the cost of the gas car. I could give a fuck less about CO2 or "dirty production" of batteries. You all are parroting the wail of the farrier.

The Beave 1y ago

Where I'm moving, cold weather is extremely important. So, 6+months out of the year it is an issue.

Brunswick 1y ago

Norway has the highest per capita ownership of EVs, they also are the Kuwait of the North. I live in USDA zone 4a

The Beave 1y ago

And yet they are having grid issues. I now a dude in Finland with a tesla. I'm very aware that you can get along with an EV, but I never will until battery tech let's be charge equivalently fast as filling a gas tank.

Brunswick 1y ago

Be my guest. Reject it because of a temporary limitation. But be aware, the high speed DC chargers are getting faster every year. Do you think a change in usage patterns of an 80 year-old electric grid will support a 10x or 100x increase in demand? I hope not, but even if they have a 2x demand shows the ability of the grid to adapt is already a miracle of engenuity. Don't point to things you don't understand not working perfectly during a massive increase in demand as proof that EVs are a bad idea. Don't say "they can disconnect you from the grid". Ok, can they shut down your solar panels? Can you drive next door and buy electricity from your neighbor? Does your neighbor also have an oil well and a refinery in their garage?

The Beave 1y ago

Lol! Dude, they can shut the car down remotely. Doesn't matter where you attempt to go to charge it. Plus, they will eventually be and to easily remotely shut off power to your whole house. That's already in place in some grids.

If you have enough panel to charge you car, cool. Most don't and can't on a roof. Many places won't allow you to build your own solar arrays that large. I think that's stupid, but facts are facts.

I can brew alcohol pretty much anywhere. If I have wooded property I can build a wood gassifier to run a generator or power an engine directly. Heck, I can build a steam turbine.

Another factor is that you aren't going to be and to replace that battery if it does die unless you pay a crapton if fiat IF you can get a replacement. IF.

Brunswick 1y ago

Yes. If your engine breaks, some people replace the entire drivetrain. If you can find a replacement. IF! You are in cognitive dissonance. I'm not going to get through to you.

You think they can't shut down your modern gasoline car? If you can go to the trouble of converting your car to a gasifier, you can figure out how to install solar panels to charge your EV. You can also smash the cellular modem chip in your entertainment unit and they can't find your car. Why do I even need to explain this?

ContrarianAgrarian 1y ago

The remote shut down concern is valid but isn’t exclusive to EVs. Any modern, cyber connected vehicle is vulnerable regardless of powertrain

The Beave 1y ago

Yes, that's true, but, I can, if given enough time, hack and slash enough stuff to get a modern ICE engine to run. I cannot do that with an EV or in some hybrids.

ContrarianAgrarian 1y ago

Fair enough.

You must be smarter at that than I am haha. I tried to be a ‘shade tree mechanic’ and was super disillusioned. It seems like any modern vehicle runs on specific replaceable modules and I had no power when the operation fell outside of the stated permitters

Brunswick 1y ago

The technology and computations that used to exist in the angle and shape of the lobes in the overhead cam now are in firmware of the ECU.

The Beave 1y ago

I have built race cars and installed aftermarket ECUs and tuned cars. I can troubleshoot many electrical systems and electronics, abs possibly fix them. Been doing that for years.

But, I can't program new modules easily if one is totally borked.

₿eth 1y ago

Well, one thing is for certain. I’ve never read so much about EV’s as I have here!

Brunswick 1y ago

I've designed ECUs

The Beave 1y ago

Cool. Then you can fix stuff I can't.

Brunswick 1y ago

You dont need to redesign an ecu when your engine stops working

The Beave 1y ago

I could replace an ecu that's not dependent on all the dumb body module BS or that's been locked by remote.

The Beave 1y ago

You need to slap in a new ECU when you can't start your car because of a remote shut fit event. Replacing the ecu is just the easiest way to bypass the bits that are preventing the engine from starting and running normally.

SuiGenerisJohn 1y ago

All of you just caused me to sell my cars and buy a tricycle.

The Beave 1y ago

I hope you took the Fiat and bought BTC. Or just sold them for BTC directly.

SuiGenerisJohn 1y ago

I dissembled and scrubbed the VINs and sold the scrap to independent brokers for btc. I used a homeless man to do the transactions as my proxy. He received two sandwiches of his choosing.

ContrarianAgrarian 1y ago

Ugh, guess I’ve been over paying my homeless guy proxy 🤪

SuiGenerisJohn 1y ago

I’m generous with the vagrants.

Brunswick 1y ago

Was it an e-tricycle? They can remote disable those if they dont want you to leave home and they can also shut off your power. What you need is a wood fired locomotive and good 'ol steel rail

DefiantDandelion 1y ago

How long have you had your EV?

Brunswick 1y ago

Many years

DefiantDandelion 1y ago

👍

Ranger Andy 1y ago

The problem is the batteries. They’re dirty asf

Brunswick 1y ago

Who fucking cares?

Ranger Andy 1y ago

The people you’re bitching about

Brunswick 1y ago

They can fuck themselves in the ass with the sears tower.

Ranger Andy 1y ago

Ngl this is a strange topic to get so heated over

Brunswick 1y ago

I'm fed up with the collective retardation among supposed well-informed and open minded people. You fall for the same psyop as everyone else: EVs bad 'cause autistic South-Afrika man bad 'n Merika! EVs are far more reliable, far less maintenance, and far less cost-per-mile than anything else. Don't tell me "lektricity is gunna be x-pentive kaus evywon is gonna ude it en deir kard". Give me a fuckin break. The only examples of failing electrical grids in the US are California. They also are at risk of an outbreak of the plague because they've turned half the state into an outdoor insane asylum and expect families to tolerate every kind of pervert to parade their glitter-dipped wang in the faces of their kindergarteners. The grid is failing because of regulation and price controls. What do you get when you have price controls? A well-connected single supplier, shortages and higher prices EVERY SINGLE TIME. The cost of electricity in California is only limited by the cost of individuals producing their own. Can you see what's coming next for them? Sunlight-tax.

I'm fine if you look at the EV critically, but not with an opinion you've been assigned because of some controlles opposition you think is in your tribe. The arguments against are obsolete. You are talking about EVs from 5 years ago. The free market and the ability of mankind to drive down prices and improve performance has not ever stopped. Don't act like it isn't there.

gojiberra 1y ago

Did I find another coffee cup queen

The Beave 1y ago

I do, since lithium based batteries are not at all replacment friendly tech.

Brunswick 1y ago

Lithium batteries can be recycled much more economically than the garbage you are sorting and paying extra to have hauled away and dumped into the Pacific

The Beave 1y ago

That is patently incorrect. 🙄

The Beave 1y ago

I can run an ICE on wood gas or alcohol. Both are easier to make and can be done nearly anywhere, and are more robust than most EV systems.

The push for EVs is about control. Say the wrong thing and you won't be allowed to fully charge your car, or it gets shut off remotely.

You need a VERY significant array and inverters and also battery storage to charge an EV off grid. Possible? Yes. But, you'd need nearly an order of magnitude more capacity than you would otherwise need for running a small, energy efficient home, even with heating and air conditioning factored in (with heat pumps).

That's just not plausible for many people.

kepford 1y ago

I imagine I'm not alone in this but what I don't like about the whole EV craze is the government push to ban IC vehicles. That coupled with the lack of consideration for tradeoffs. EVs aren't good and ICs aren't bad. It's more complex. There is a place for both. Along with hybrids. That seems reasonable to me but it's seems this take is not common.

There are always tradeoffs and only fools don't see this.

Brunswick 1y ago

EVs are not "more complex". Do you realize your gasoline engine cost billions and took a half decade to design? Putting a bunch of laptop batteries under your floorboards isn't exactly the hardest concept to understand. The induction motor has been driving every industry, nearly every appliance in your home has one, keeping people alive in hospitals and schools with chillers and air handlers, keeping half the cities in the US from turning back into swampland for an entire century. The induction motor isn't more complex than a modern gasoline engine.

Oh what about all the electronics?

Would your gasoline engine work if it didn't have electronics? Injection drivers, flywheel induction pickups, knock sensors, richness feedback loops, spark plug coil packs, OBD self-diagnosis and reporting... none of this shit is necessary with electric.

The EV electric drive unit is a regenerative VFD connected to a gas pedal. These have been around in one form or another for 40 years. Its not that fucking complicated, not even a little.

kepford 1y ago

I didn't say EVs are more complex. I'm talking about the tradeoffs. The good vs bad dicodomy people get into about IC and EV. They each have positives and negatives. Seems like you are looking for a fight. I'm not anti EV or anti IC. I'm anti authoritarian.

Brunswick 1y ago

Agreed. I'm trying to disabuse the anti EV fud because I'm for freedom and independence foremost and its frustrating to watch people paint themselves into a corner in reaction to authoritarians. The reality is EVs are a decentralizing force, and oil dependence is a centralizing one.

kepford 1y ago

Reactionary response is one of the most common responses. We all can fall into it.

The Beave 1y ago

For 99.9999999% of people, EVs are centralizing.

Try to fix one. Then tell me how great they are. Until Right to Repair stuff becomes ubiquitous (and it won't), you're screwed.

Brunswick 1y ago

That many 9's implies there is only 1/100th of a person that can maintain the car. You are throwing up a new-part supply-chain problem. Yet another red herring, a pathetic argument. Firstly, there are indeed third party suppliers of parts for EVs, you don't need to only replace parts with OEM. Secondly, my original point is EVs don't need nearly as much drivetrain maintenance as an ICE vehicle. The drivetrain is about 20x or more reliable and less maintenance than ICE. Thirdly, the main parts would need to maintain on an EV are readily available from parts stores and from many suppliers, and the dope that can't fucking change brakes on their car can still find any mechanic to do it for them because its the exact same interchangeable parts as all other vehiclea on the road. Lastly, there are plenty stupid brars out there that drag race their EVs and get them tangled around a telephone pole. This means there are plenty perfectly good parts available in the junk yard. Just because you don't understand something doesen't mean its something to be afraid of.

The Beave 1y ago

It's not a pathetic argument when car makers are throwing up more roadblocks to People repairing their own vehicles. Nowadays, a lot of parts that have to be replaced won't work with the system until you actually reprogram the body control modules or the ECU for the engine. People can't actually do that, which is the problem. And a lot of the vital components in electric vehicles are more heavily integrated with the electronics. Aside from regular maintenance and stuff like brakes or shocks, and even shocks sometimes are an exception to that, you can't actually do a lot of the work yourself, so it's not ridiculous as long as people don't have access to the electronics tools and the programming tools in order to actually replace bigger components on vehicles.

Brunswick 1y ago

Your beef is with all auto manufacturers. Why are you using this as an argument against EVs?

The Beave 1y ago

Because it's worse in newer EVs.

Dude, I'm glad you are having a good time with yours. Many don't. I, personally, won't.

Brunswick 1y ago

Hey, I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm just pointing out you are following the crowd

The Beave 1y ago

I'm really not. I buy old cars I can fix myself. Nearly no one I know does that anymore.

Brunswick 1y ago

You're jealous because Tesla can mass produce a car that can blow the doors off any ICE you can customize. That's what this is really about, isn't it?

The Beave 1y ago

No. It isn't. I've never even driven one. 🤷‍♂️

Brunswick 1y ago

How is it worse when they turn off your EV without your permission than when they turn off your ICE without your permission? Obviously you have never been late on child support payments. You have more to be concerned about than just a fucking remote switch in your car.

The Beave 1y ago

Because you can't just buy another ecu and slap it in, tune it and drive. High end motor controllers are really effing dangerous let alone harder for idiots like me to wrap their heads around how to get stuff running right without setting anything on fire.

Of course I haven't been late on a child support payment. I've never had a kid. 😮‍💨

Brunswick 1y ago

Electronics are replaceable, just like an ECU. Someone will make a new VFD controller and bypass all of the security controls when it becomes a problem. There are hot-rod guys that have these EVs torn down and know them inside out.

The Beave 1y ago

Yup. But, yes not the same level as aftermarket ICE stuff now.

It's also exceptionally dangerous to play with that stuff casually. It's beyond my capability.

Nope Noperson 1y ago

Aren't the raw materials for the batteries super centralized?

Brunswick 1y ago

Batteries aren't consumable. You could say the same of the xenon in the headlights. The decentralized nature of fuel is the liberating aspect of EVs.

Nope Noperson 1y ago

It seems more complicated.

From Business Insider:

"Tesla battery replacements can cost over $20,000, Tesla owners have reported. When one Canadian Tesla owner's battery died in 2023, the company told him a replacement would cost $26,000. Another owner in Scotland received a bill equivalent to $21,000 USD to replace his Tesla's battery after it got damaged by rain.

Batteries degrade at varying rates based on a number of factors, like how the EV was charged, what type of environment it was driven in, and more. Auto expert Sandy Munro previously told Business Insider that, the Tesla batteries are easily damaged and difficult to repair or even assess. Munro even said Tesla's Model Y battery has "zero repairability" following a collision."

---

How much Xenon is in a headlamp? Are Xenon headlamps critical or are there alternatives?

An EV needs between 20 and 140lbs of Lithium and 30lbs of Cobalt. The majority of these are mined in the Congo, often by kids, and the companies are owned by China. The US has almost no pressence in the market.

I get that it is good to get away from a handful of oil/gas companies, and that there are numerous sources of electricity.

Brunswick 1y ago

Precisely. Business Insider sounds credible doesen't it? THERE ARE NO CREDIBLE NEWS SOURCES. Get your head out of your ass. There are equal and worse arguments against ICE vehicles. What do you expect from an emerging technology? Are we supposed to have ready-to-go supply chains before the new economy even barely starts? Bullshit Insider can go fuck themselves.

Luke 1y ago

I understand what you are saying, but I still don’t like EVs because I hate being dependent on electricity… in a world where solar energy is easy and abundant everywhere and wind generated energy is easy and cheap to tap into… sure, but that is definitely not the case in a lot of areas especially in northern regions where there are quite often weather related power outages, lack of sunlight for weeks and wind is not an easily harnessed resource… but you are also forgetting that ethanol can be produced at home and also biodiesel vehicles exist… also wood alcohol vehicles have been made and used one of the guys on the Mountain Men show drove around for a couple seasons in a truck powered by wood alcohol… EVs have a long way to go in my opinion to be the best option.

Brunswick 1y ago

The amount of energy that goes into making ethanol far exceeds the amount of energy you can extract just by burning the entire plant. Electricity produced at reasonable scales extracts 1/2 of the energy from combustion. The waste heat is often used for heating either municipalities or industrial chemical processes. Thermodynamically, you do not get better efficiency than 50%. Once its converted to electeicity, the energy is delivered to your battery at nearly 100% (yes i know its less, but for argument's sake it might as well be). Lithium ion batteries, a true modern miracle, have very very low energy loss during charging, storage and discharge.

With alcohol, if you were 1% efficient you'd be lucky; this if you include solar energy conversion to plant sugars, chemical spraying, harvesting, drying, mashing, distilling and delivery.

Luke 1y ago

Ok but I can still make ethol alcohol in my kitchen during a very cloudy and snowy 4-6 months of winter when solar panels can’t produce much energy and my electricity from the power companies are dependent on whether a tree falls on a line a few miles away or a vehicle slides off the road and takes out a power pole, both have happened and both have taken days and week to restore power.

serenitys forge 1y ago

I dont have an issue with EVs or IC vehicles. I consider EVs an emergent tech that will develop over time.

It's not like we are still driving model Ts.

My issue is with built in cut offs and GPS systems. Next time the state wants a lockdown or a 15 minute city, your car dies outside the exclustion zone.

And as we move towards self driving uber-esque pods thats only going to get worse. The whole system could be shut down.

The ability to move freely, the right to free association is whats at stake here.

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Hey feel free to set your shit on fire, you do you.

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Eliminate the battery & the bloody computer, then maybe we can talk...

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Oh & just FYI, there are many flammable fuels... not all of which are oil....

Brunswick 1y ago

Wtf dude. I'm not against fire. Burn anything you want to make electricity. Fuck your CO2 objections, I'm not even participating in that commie debate

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

🤣 I have no objections to CO2, barking up the wrong tree there.

I'm saying if you want to risk that fire hazzard called a lithium battery, go right ahead. 🤣

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Just don't go all collectivist & expect everyone else to foot the bill to replace it through taxes or insurance premiums...

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Nikola Teslas car didn't go up in smoke unlike the ones named after him...

Brunswick 1y ago

This is a simple problem to solve. Eventually they will figure out how tonpack graphite around the cells so if there is an accident, the graphite will stifle the metal fire

5d

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Maybe, but if I'm forced I'll choose Hydrogen not EV.

Brunswick 1y ago

If anyone forces you, i'll stand next to you to and them to fuck off

Nic ⛄ 1y ago

I agree. I like electric, hydrogen, gas & diesel vehicles. The more of each type, the better, imo.

Dependent on the individual's needs or the location's energy usage, the type of vehicle people lean towards will change.

I live in Alberta, where gas and hydrogen would likely win out in the market, due to the province's oil & gas energy production. In Quebec, electric vehicles may likely win out in the market, due to their cheap hydro power.

My issue with EVs, which also applies to new gasoline cars, is the control of the manufacturer over the car's data & their ability to override the software.

Brunswick 1y ago

This can be subverted.

oldgeezy 1y ago

Ive heard a lot of bad arguments in favor of EVs. that they are less centralizing than IC vehicles is utter nonsense.

Brunswick 1y ago

Ah yes, the "utter nonsense" argument. You officially win with the 'dissmissal' logical fallacy

ContrarianAgrarian 1y ago

Overall I think I agree with your thesis but I gently disagree with your kinda abrasive approach. You’ll attract more flies with honey than vinegar 🫂

Brunswick 1y ago

Normally I'm less abrasive but I'm feeling feisty

ContrarianAgrarian 1y ago

I appreciate the conversation starter but just good to be aware of 🫂

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