right now, the bitcoin market seems to be immune to good news but very reactive to bad news
two years ago, we would say that etfs will take us to a million dollars
that never happened and is even less likely to happen now
bitcoin needs a narrative change and some upgrades
How about we get back to the original narrative?
And stop watching price. Focus on building and onboarding?
p2p electronic cash. magic internet money. sats the standard. we came to destroy the existing monetary paradigm, not to play nice with it. don't like it? gfy and have fun staying poor.
Bitcoin doesn’t need to change, Bitcoiners (the people) need to change. What’s required isn’t a protocol upgrade, but a BIP for the mind. It starts with a physical understanding of what the protocol already is, a completed understanding of time as Bitcoin instantiates it. Only from that grounding can protocol changes be justified by objective necessity rather than subjective preference.
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Narrative changes and “upgrades” don’t seem to be working for alts
Stablecoins are doing very well, and they're crypto.
But not for alt price which is what Vlad was getting at I think. And bitcoin already has stablecoins on its network.
stablecoins on lightning seems like a win-win to me. stablecoins on RGB I'm not so sure, maybe!
Yeah for L2s only lightning has shown any potential to date.
L2s that starve miners of fee revenue are completely unsustainable long term.
"upgrades" are L1 consensus changes needed for creating different L2s, that cause miners to receive more fee revenue, or features like CTV that make L1 transactions more useful so more people will do them.
miners will need to rely increasingly more on fee revenue and less on block rewards. the status quo of lightning, liquid, cashu, and arkade is not going to make that happen. they earn next to nothing from these. it's unsustainable.
the scenario where extremely expensive lightning channel maintenance transactions are funding most of the hashrate is extremely bad for permissionlessness and freedom. it's bad for the user. so we need something different.
This argument I can agree with. Though where the balance lies I'm not sure, as in can a lightning network that is sufficiently chatty with Bitcoin still be a healthy combo in the longterm? Dunno.
But if there's no traffic on the L1 then fees will fall and people will only use Arkade for low, value or time-sensitive transactions.
Fees are something like 50c right now, so there is nothing stopping people using L1 for medium value, non-time sensitive transactions.
it goes up, then it collapses, until it stabilizes
more and more people might say "it's only 50 cents, guess I'll use it." but then if it climbs, more and more people will say "fuck this, I'll just use spark (or another cryptocurrency)."
the collapsed fee market has stabilized around 50 cents for so long that it looks like this is what the market can currently handle. all the rest of the fee revenue goes to creepy permissioned L2 companies (or other blockchains).
what we need to get is a kind of scaling solution where all the fees go straight to miners, but there is enough room that each transaction can pay a small fee, so that people will actually stick around.
(I am doing unpaid guerilla marketing for drivechains today)
Large movements of money will always prefer L1 if cheap. There’s still 95% adoption left to go, I’m not too worried. However, I’m not sure how any of it reacts to breakthroughs in near free energy, personally.
why do we even need stable coins, seems like traditional banks and payment rails are doing a fine job of moving dollars without the need for an ERC-20 token
losing value at the same rate as the dollar = "doing well" lolololol
losing value compared to what?
do I really need to explain inflation to you?
if the thing that supposedly doesn't suffer from inflation is losing value at a rate faster than the thing that *does* suffer from inflation then clearly value and inflation are not joined at the hip
lolwut?
the purchasing power of Tether has dropped 36.85% since its inception in 2014.
how's Bitcoin doing since 2014?
How's Bitcoin doing since 365 days ago?
Anyone can play the start from zero game. Random rock band founded in 2014 grew album sales at a rate 100 times faster than Coldplay during that period!
bitcoin has barely moved in purchasing power in the last year.
in other words: its less volatile and more stable.
you know, the #1 complaint retards (like you) have had against it for the last 15 years.
sorry you have to keep moving goalposts, but that's what happens when you're on the wrong side of an argument.
cope harder.
The dollar loses value every day. Anything pegged to it 1:1 loses value with it, at the same exact rate.
The dollar loses value every day compared to what? Avocados?
I love how I was like "do I need to explain inflation to you?" as a rhetorical question, cause no one is THAT stupid, right?
turns out, I was wrong. you ARE that stupid.
No, you are just stuck in a bubble. Inflation is one of many factors to take into account when evaluating the value of different monies vis a vis each other, or a vis a vis a basket of goods, or whatever.
It is not the be all and end all. Obviously.
except it literally is to the billions of people living paycheck to paycheck and trying to feed their families
Ok lets make this simple. When it takes more dollars to purchase the same things than it did 6 months ago, that means the dollar lost value. Read some Mises, Rothbard or Hazlitt. Clearly you know nothing about money, currency or economics.
Sure, it has lost value compared to, wait for it, those things. Not rocket science.
But at the same time it could have gained value compared to another currency which can also be used, directly or indirectly, to purchase those things. Yawn.
so currency A loses purchasing power over goods and services, but currency B loses purchasing power even faster, thus it looks like currency A is gaining value relative to currency B
and in your mind somehow this makes currency A gaining value overall, even though you can buy less land, beef, oil, or gold with it than a year ago.
you're the literal posterboy for fiat dude, please keep talking, its HILARIOUS.
Sigh. It makes currency A gain value *versus currency B* even though you can buy less beef with currency A ... because you can buy *even less* beef with currency B.
You select some things to compare, you compare those things. That's what value is. There is no such thing as non-relative value. Duh.
Hard to believe I'm having this discussion.
so you DO know what inflation is.
okay so what's the question? why should we save in a deflationary currency?
Well it just depends what the alternative is, doesn't it? Why save in anything? Why save in Bitcoin? If you had 1 bitcoin, and sold it 365 days ago to buy silver, and sold your silver today to buy back bitcoin, you'd have 2.5 bitcoin. If the goal is to accrue value, then you save in whatever does that!
What drives value at the end of the day is STORIES. Things like inflation, liquidity, etc., these are just various plot points that we can use or not use in the stories we tell. But in the end the value of a given money comes down to how persuaded people are by that money's story. Money is simply trade-able persuasion.
OK so then on a 10+ year timeline what has outperformed Bitcoin for savings (also known as DCA)
if I've been saving for retirement for the last 15 years and had only $100/mo to put away, where should I have put it?
Nobody can tell you. This idea that some certain money has objective properties that exist outside of the human imagination and that will guarantee this money's success in x years time, it's all nonsense. No money, fiat or crypto, has objective properties that exist outside of the human imagination. No money has protons, neutrons or electrons. Just imagina-trons. All of 'em.
It's all just one big fight for the collective human imagination, and the only weapons in this fight are stories. (Note *human imagination*, and not animal, because penguins and polar bears could care less about this fight.) Each money is armed with its own story, and the stories are doing battle, and it's never-ending, and new stories will emerge and old stories will fade away, and on and on we go. That's what it's about.
what currency has a better story than the underdog who had a virgin birth, couldn't be killed by the old gods, and came back to defeat all of them?
yeah I agree with you there, it's a good story, and that's why bitcoin has done quite well in the story wars.
but stories go in and out of fashion, the audience is humans and we have a limited attention span!
you can cling to your old, dead dogma. everything has an expiration date
we are winning the meme war. we already have the best story. and there's been no better place to save value for a decade. you lose on all fronts dude.
One fiat's value compared to another's is irrelvant to this discussion. Stablecoins are pegged to the USD. The USD loses value daily. Plus, all fiat, no matter where, are losing value. Again, read some books. You are clueless on this topic
Don't be dumb. Any money can be compared to any other money and have a value winner emerge vis a vis whatever measure or basket you're using, and whatever period of time. Bitcoin is not some transcendent thing the value of which is somehow absolute (as if there were such a thing as absolute value, donk).
okay so what has outperformed Bitcoin then?
Lots of things!
Bitcoin is more or less a start-from-scratcher on an exact 10-year timescale, so a fair comparison would be other things that are also more or less start from scratch.
Eth pretty sure. As in if you bought $100 worth of Eth exactly 10 years ago today, you'd have done better than if you'd bought $100 worth of Bitcoin.
Also NVIDIA stock too probably, but that's not from scratch (though it's from the gaming GPU time when nobody could have forseen AI)
I stated as a monthly or weekly DCA, using it as a savings acct, which asset performed best. putting the same dollars in at regular intervals. not a lump sum.
if you wanna do "lump sum pick a date hur durr" then we'll just pick bitcoin 2009 and be done with it. no, I mean consistent savings.
Lol "pick a date", no. You said 10, I gave you 10, and now you don't like it because you learned that Nvidia and Eth did better over the past 10 years.
Also, news flash, 10 years is the least random measure you can think of. If it was 7.32 years or something the that'd be cherry picking.
Nvidia and Eth? An over priced stock and a token that is useless as actual money? Jesus fucking christ 🤣
You really are fucking clueless.
Let me lay it out for your Neanderthal IQ.
It's 10 years ago today.
Me, you and Mikey Mouse each have 100 Bitcoin.
You keep yours.
I sell mine and buy Nvida stock.
Mickey sells his and bus Eth.
This morning I sell my Nvidia and buy Bitcoin. Mickey sells his Eth and buys Bitcoin.
Guess what? We both now have more Bitcoin than you. Amazing. What happened?
I said 10 years of DCA, don't twist my words. now actually do the math and come back to me.
Oh please. The past 10 years is a perfectly legit time period. You just had no idea that Eth and Nvidia had appreciated more than Bitcoin during it, and now you're digging deep in your pockets to find any sort of technicality to get you out.
Here's what I used for another oops didn't know person.
It's 10 years ago today.
Me, you and Mickey Mouse each have 100 Bitcoin.
You keep yours.
I sell mine and buy Nvida stock.
Mickey sells his and bus Eth.
This morning I sell my Nvidia and buy Bitcoin. Mickey sells his Eth and buys Bitcoin.
Guess what? We both now have more Bitcoin than you. Amazing. What happened?
If bitcoin is ~*good*~ and I have more than you now, then aren't I ~*gooder*~!
Awaiting whatever other technicality you want to fish out of your pocket.
so now your only argument is that we should all be active stock market traders to accumulate more sats?
please stop trying to throw curveballs. you have no point to get to.
This just sounds like a religion or morality argument. Look the fact is that somebody who sold their bitcoin bought Ethereum and then sold back for bitcoin has way way way more bitcoin than you now.
okay. yup. you're going with "everyone should start trading"
cool story.
Don't pretend like if you could go back in time 10 years with $1,000 you'd buy Bitcoin and not Ethereum (butterfly effect disabled). Of course you'd buy Ethereum, and then you'd jump back forward in time and sell it for Bitcoin.
And if you had a crystal ball and knew 100% for sure that say, whatever, I dunno, titanium, was going to rise in value versus bitcoin over the next 5 years, you'd sell all your bitcoin and buy titanium.
If not then what are you thinking? That it makes you somehow moral to end up with less bitcoin but to have held it all along?
I'm thinking that you only think in impossibilities and outlandish scenarios that only work in SciFi, and I'm living in the real world saving my wealth in the strongest currency ever to exist.
you're being a fool and investing your hard-earned money all in one place based on some weird combination of ideology, friendship and magic-show hypnosis.
this isn't 2009. bitcoin's puberty is over. its teenager height now. lots of things will grow faster than bitcoin in 2026. as happened in 2025. (heck even the S&P 500 grew 20% faster in 2025.) keep some of your money in bitcoin but spread the rest around. trade a little. and cash out back to bitcoin when it makes sense.
humans have been trading since the beginning of time for a reason.
do you wish you had bought Palantir?
I have said since the start of this convo that I am talking about *savings*
show me the best asset to *save* in, a regular amount of any fiat currency at a regular interval for 10+ years. my terms have not changed. yours keep changing.
I’m looking at Mickey Mouse with his 3500 or whatever bitcoin, and you with your 100 bitcoin, and you’re telling me that somehow you made the right choice because of some arbitrary definition of “savings”?
hate to break it to you but 10 years ago today bitcoin required something of a risk appetite, you can’t retroactively go back and make it some kind of well-known thing like it is today
Who said anything about bitcoin? And yes the dollar can be compared to another currency, but that has no relevance to THIS particular discussion in any way at all.
What pray tell is THIS particular discussion about then?
Holy shit. Its about nothing as far as Im concerned anymore. This is fucking pointless
You came without a point, and you left without a point.
I'll give you one thing, you're good at symmetry.
Not my fault you are clueless and cant understand the most basic of economic concepts.
Literally the only point you've brought to this conversation is that inflation exists. Which of course it does.
What other things would you like to inform us all that exist?
Pumpkins?
If that is all you got from anything I wrote, you are either illiterate, retarded, or just plain fucking stupid. So, have a good day and fuck off 🖕
Pumpkins. I thought so.
inflation exists. deflation exists. you'd be an absolute fool to save your wealth in an inflationary currency when there's a deflationary alternative. end of debate.
1sat=1sat
1dorito=1dorito, what's your point?
newsflash: ETF's and stable coins and BTC Treasury companies and paper bitcoin and derivatives, etc...
ARE THE NARRATIVE CHANGE.
go watch every video Andreas Antonoupolous did from 2010-2015 and come back to us with a full understanding of the true original narrative of bitcoin.
hint: we aren't supposed to be buddy-buddy with the wall st suits and bankers.
we are supposed to leave them broke and unemployed and homeless, begging for scraps in the street as all their wealth becomes fucking W O R T H L E S S
Wait, there are people who actually believed Bitcoin would hit 1 million USD this year ? 🤣🤣🤣
The narrative we need is simple. If you want something to be money, then use it as such.
Bitcoiners love complication. It's not complicated.
The ETFs frame bitcoin as an asset which is store of value. Bitcoin needs to move to the next stage of becoming currency (unit of account)
Bitcoin prolonged down market may be a sign that it is finally time to innovate and improve the tech behind it.
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