incredibly lame
Discussion
Paper bitcoiners are incredibly lame
Odell what are the current rough stats on the percentages of people that pay with bitcoin vs fiat at the bitcoin park bit dev meetups? Isn’t is something like 20% pay with bitcoin and 80% fiat?
If those are still the numbers, we still have a long ways to go with paying in bitcoin becoming normalized *amongst bitcoiners*
yea, it’s pretty bad
Plebs: Bitcoin is money, damnit!
Also Plebs: Don't spend it! Just think about how much fiat it will be worth!
It's perfectly legitimate for bitcoiners to spend in fiat
Many bitcoiners are still earning fiat and stacking sats, and they don't expect to spend much bitcoin while they're still working and earning fiat.
Bitcoiners are supposed to understand game theory right, and so we can't complain when bitcoiners make the optimal spending choices for them 😀
My point was that at one of the most ‘hardcore’ bitdev meetups in the world, the vast majority of people still pay in fiat.
So what?
Many of the hardcore devs may still be stacking sats and earning fiat, perfectly rational for a hardcore bitcoiner depending on their personal financial situation
Its Gresham's Law
... so when will you talk to donors to ensure that the 'hardcore'(*) developers are funded in bitcoin?
(*) whatever 'hardcore' means 😀
Bitcoin existing doesn’t make Gresham’s law go away. The shitty currency gets spent and the good one gets saved. You can buy groceries with gold and silver in Texas but nobody does.
Gresham’s law goes away when you only hold bitcoin and zero dollars 🤯
pretty much
For future bitdevs you should accept Bitcoin only
totally agree. it‘s the message!
You're a gentleman. I'd use a different term. 😂
still a net positive to the space. claiming otherwise is like saying the lifelong rocker is a poser bc he also likes michael jackson. nah. miopic thinking is a death wish to one’s self.
Jeff Walton sounds like a bitch
Those fiat jockeys and their "diversified portfolios" 🙄
The demise of the dollar can't come soon enough.
Jeff Walton sounds like a tool
Incredibly lame paper jokers 💩
Steak n Shake can do it, but Saylor cant! 
Probably gay.
Why would anyone buy Strategy merch at all?
This is what Bitcoin has become.
Michael Saylor's actions, and statements just prove that he's a Fiat Maxi using Bitcoin as his grift.
Anyone who's a loyal follower of Michael Saylor is a Fiat Maxi also.
We need to Reclaim The Bitcoin Culture.
I once tried to buy a Fold hat with bitcoin, but they only accepted credit cards. They said they wanted to encourage people to save bitcoin and spend fiat.
I underastand the market prefers this, and I still bought the hat, but are they taking bitcoin payments yet?
Suit Logic
I need to put my soy blockers on before reading his comment.
Omg 🤦🏻♂️
Why even look?
Doesn’t make any sense. It should be possible to pay with #Lightning.
It’s that type of thinking that doesn’t move the needle
Out of all the arguments I’ve seen for and against strategy, this might be the most telling.
If I’m going to preach something to my peers and colleagues, I’d better be leading by example. Credibility is everything.
Fiat maximalism from one of the world's biggest bond salesmen.
Holy hell, that is some primo mid curve pretzel logic
Odell we left X in the dust, man!
You’re short bitcoin if you don’t have to spend it
LOL, seems more about buying a scarce asset than actually using bitcoin is the impression I've had for the last year or two from Saylor and crew. They don't want to accept it in real time for goods, well, seems short sighted to me, but not surprising. Just my 2 sats
Indeed. Not wanting to spend your sats is a personal choice and I whole heartedly support that. Not understanding why you would want to spend them is so short sighted and narrow minded.
Yeah I get the logic, but there’s an ineffable magic to sats flowing.
Just thinking about it makes me want to go to Steak n Shake this weekend!
We’re working with Strategy to allow COMPLIANCE•TOKEN ® holders to be able to pay for hats with tokenized Strategy shares.
Am I an idiot for buying my Coldcards with sats then? At least it wasn't a shitty hat.
No, you're part of revolution. 🧡
They are just LARPing.
Strategy was the worst thing for bitcoin
the whole thing made me laugh! peace bothers and sisters ✌️ 😂 🤙
So I’m guessing you didn’t watch the TFTC with Jeff 😂
Years ago, when people were discussing 100k bitcoin the thought was that every merchant in the world would be accepting bitcoin by then. We are north of 100k and there are not that many more vendors. Bitcoin is for property exchange not trinket sales.
Bad money always beats out good money. Or, people would rather spend their bad money first.
heads-up: we looked for a lightning address on your profile but could not find one... u can get a free one at https://rizful.com ... and then reply back to this comment so we can zap you.
I plan to never sell any of my bitcoin. Certainly not trading it for a hat, coffee, or a steak sandwich.
If they remove the taxes on it, then I’ll convert my monthly spending money into btc and spend that. At that point I am sure you can buy the hat with btc anyway.
Lame as it may be, Jeff is right, for now.
that's the exact reason why you are lame. you prevent yourself from using bitcoin as money because of irrelevant technicalities
Yeah I know. Following laws is lame. Paying taxes is lame. I should make my already very difficult life much more difficult to make people on the internet happy - is that it? Would that make me cool?
Jeff's take is really a bad one here - wow.
we different kind of bitcoiners mate we new of silk rd and saw it did you? nope you were selling insurance or at Uni you frap boy Walton you such a dick bro some of us are here for the revolution you obviously have no philosophy just number go up True Nth is a bunch of frap boys fapping each other of you homo
LOL
Very lame
wHy wOuLd yOu BuY sOmeTHiNg wiTh aN aPpReCiAtiNg AsSeT?
Dilema...
But we used to say,
"Spend a Bitcoin, Buy a Bitcoin"
I prefer to always pay in Bitcoin when I can, and simply buy the same amount.
Everyone please should do this. and if you are a merchant, please offer a discount when using Bitcoin. Any amount, 1%, 5%, 0.5%, would be a nice touch.
Saylor in general is lame.
Bitcoin’s best use case is apparently to entice retards into maxing their credit card outs to get digital gold that then gets confiscated by a bank when the retards eventually go bankrupt.
mid curve moves
Saylor is on record of saying, "Never, ever, sell your Bitcoin."
If I get paid in Fiat ... why spend 1% to convert it to Bitcoin .. and then incur Capital Gains taxes and an accounting nightmare?
So, they have a point in a way. Need that "de-minimus" rule and even still .... my Bitcoin is growing at 30% CAGR .... why spend it when my fiat is shrinking hourly ?
Not everybody is a Bitcoin influensoor.
Because it goes up 30-50% a year. wtf?
Bitcoin averages about 30% per year. And it costs 1% to buy and selling it at a profit incurs capital gains taxes.
My state just hit me up for $170 in taxes owed in 2023 when I had to sell my stash to pay for my cancer surgeries.
They WILL find you.
… and you’re still WWAAAAYYYY ahead than if you saved in fiat. The math isn’t even close even with trading fees and taxes.
Nobody is talking about saving in Fiat ... the whole post is about spending. It's about your spending account. Spending accounts are for spending and my gets drained every month.
Savings is different. Savings involves that money that you do not spend. When your income is > spending .... you wind up with savings.
There's no grocery store, mortgage company, utility provider, gas station, hardware store or insurance company that takes Bitcoin within 1000 miles of me. (northeast part of the USA).
As far as spending .... Bitcoin is a nothing burger until retailers get set up on the Lightening Network.
As far as savings, wholly different matter.
Are you gender fluid? Do you not see the distinct nature of two different items? Lemme guess ... your node is Core V30.
Strike bill pay sir, look it up. Hold and spend bitcoin with fiat rails
This is retarded tradfi bullshit. When nostr:nprofile1qqsvn0dkjt80raqrxd470c98n7zrdehmcvj6p5hgw3kyku6zyd8z0fqpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduq32amnwvaz7tm9v3jkutnwdaehgu3wd3skueq4ulz2v Bill Pay came out I put like $10k or so I had in a fiat savings account into BTC, IIRC fiat price was roughly in $60-70k. Every month since I put $1-2k or so into BTC, my weighted avg cost is ~$85k versus today’s $111k. Please show me the actual math that says holding fiat and using a credit card is better. I WILL FUCKING WAIT
For people who failed fifth grade math, nostr:nprofile1qqs8msutuusu385l6wpdzf2473d2zlh750yfayfseqwryr6mfazqvmgpr9mhxue69uhhqun9d45h2mfwwpexjmtpdshxuet59uq3gamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7tpvfkx2tn0wfnj77mvtex has your back on this one.
TLDR: Final Answer
Given the assumptions (BTC growth 30–50%, 25% tax, 1% buy/sell fee, dollar inflation 5%), holding Bitcoin yields significantly more after one year:
Lower end (30% growth): $120.31
Upper end (50% growth): $134.56
Holding dollars: $95 (purchasing power)
So based on the math, Bitcoin is better under these specific assumptions.
Full text:
Alright, let’s break this down step-by-step and compare the two scenarios over a one-year period.
---
**1. Define the problem**
We’re comparing:
- **Bitcoin (BTC)**
- Expected annual growth: 30–50% (I’ll calculate a range)
- Short-term capital gains tax: 25% (applied to the gain only when sold)
- Transaction fee to buy/sell: 1% of transaction value (so total round trip cost = ~2% of principal if we buy then sell after a year)
- **Dollars (USD)**
- Inflation: 5% loss in purchasing power per year (no tax on holding cash)
- No transaction fees
Initial savings: Let’s take **$100** for easy calculation.
---
**2. Bitcoin case**
Start with $100.
**Step 1 – Buy BTC**
Pay 1% transaction fee:
Amount actually invested in Bitcoin = \( 100 \times (1 - 0.01) = 99 \) dollars worth of BTC.
**Step 2 – BTC grows over 1 year**
Growth rate scenarios:
- **Lower end (30% growth)**
Value after growth = \( 99 \times 1.30 = 128.70 \)
- **Upper end (50% growth)**
Value after growth = \( 99 \times 1.50 = 148.50 \)
**Step 3 – Sell BTC**
Pay 1% transaction fee on final amount:
Post-fee value = Value after growth \( \times (1 - 0.01) \)
Lower: \( 128.70 \times 0.99 = 127.413 \)
Upper: \( 148.50 \times 0.99 = 146.415 \)
**Step 4 – Pay capital gains tax**
Capital gain = Final after-sale-fee amount minus initial $100 basis? Wait — careful:
Actually, capital gain = sale proceeds before tax minus cost basis.
But cost basis = $99 (what we paid for BTC after the buy fee).
Sale proceeds before tax but after selling fee: we already computed above (127.413 and 146.415).
So gain = Post-sale-fee amount − cost basis.
Lower: \( 127.413 - 99 = 28.413 \) gain
Upper: \( 146.415 - 99 = 47.415 \) gain
Tax = 25% of gain:
Lower: \( 0.25 \times 28.413 \approx 7.10325 \)
Upper: \( 0.25 \times 47.415 \approx 11.85375 \)
After tax = Post-sale-fee amount − tax
Lower: \( 127.413 - 7.10325 = 120.30975 \)
Upper: \( 146.415 - 11.85375 = 134.56125 \)
So final after-tax amount in dollars:
- **BTC 30% growth case → ≈ $120.31**
- **BTC 50% growth case → ≈ $134.56**
---
**3. Dollar case**
Start with $100.
Inflation 5%: purchasing power after 1 year = \( 100 \times (1 - 0.05) = 95 \) in today’s dollars.
No tax, no fees.
Final purchasing power = **$95**.
---
**4. Compare**
BTC (30% growth): $120.31 vs USD: $95 → BTC better by $25.31
BTC (50% growth): $134.56 vs USD: $95 → BTC better by $39.56
Even in the lower growth scenario (30%), Bitcoin yields more after taxes and fees.
---
**5. Check if BTC could be worse**
We can solve for the break-even BTC growth rate:
Let r = growth rate before fees.
After buy fee: invest \( 99 \)
After growth: \( 99(1+r) \)
After sell fee: \( 99(1+r) \times 0.99 \)
Gain = \( 99(1+r)\times 0.99 - 99 \)
Tax = 0.25 × gain
After tax = \( 99(1+r)\times 0.99 - 0.25[99(1+r)\times 0.99 - 99] \)
We want this = $95 (dollar case after inflation).
Let \( A = 99(1+r)\times 0.99 = 98.01(1+r) \)
After tax = \( A - 0.25(A - 99) = 0.75A + 24.75 \)
Set equal to 95:
\( 0.75 \times 98.01(1+r) + 24.75 = 95 \)
\( 73.5075(1+r) + 24.75 = 95 \)
\( 73.5075(1+r) = 70.25 \)
\( 1+r = 70.25 / 73.5075 \approx 0.9556 \)
\( r \approx -0.0444 \)
So if Bitcoin **decreases** about 4.44% per year, it breaks even with holding dollars (which lose 5% purchasing power). Any positive return >0% in BTC before fees likely beats USD given these assumptions.
---
**Final Answer**
Given the assumptions (BTC growth 30–50%, 25% tax, 1% buy/sell fee, dollar inflation 5%), **holding Bitcoin yields significantly more** after one year:
- Lower end (30% growth): $120.31
- Upper end (50% growth): $134.56
- Holding dollars: $95 (purchasing power)
So based on the math, Bitcoin is better under these specific assumptions.
\[
\boxed{Bitcoin}
\]
In all things, the logic of that branch of “bitcoiners” is the midcurviest of the midcurvers.
Be a Bitcoin company -> support Bitcoin payments.
It’s that simple.
Just saying...🤣
