nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgpvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33wf6xcutrvyu8ydnpw4ukzae4dc6ksvmvx56ryvnyd568xunex4j85en9v56rvwfkveck2wrnxeckwatyddenwer2w3n8x0mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2qgjwaehxw309ahkvenrdpskjm3wwp6kyf5qgdj would vote for him again he said. nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgpvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33wf6xcutrvyu8ydnpw4ukzae4dc6ksvmvx56ryvnyd568xunex4j85en9v56rvwfkveck2wrnxeckwatyddenwer2w3n8x0mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2qgjwaehxw309ahkvenrdpskjm3wwp6kyf5qgdj says he is an upholder of judeo Christian values.
Discussion
nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgpr9mhxue69uhhqatjv9mxjerp9ehx7um5wghxcctwvsqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsjnv598 is good at playing both sides. He has not and could not stand in an intellectual debate.
What would you like to debate about?
Last time it was capitalism and you dip out without answering questions. But, I’m game for anything, even college football.
How do you see me playing both sides in your opinion? In my opinion It’s pretty obvious I’m a right libertarian.
It would be a hard pill for you to swallow but a bitcoiner and right libertarian don’t line up…especially if you believe that the “Christian” god would support trump.
nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgpvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33wf6xcutrvyu8ydnpw4ukzae4dc6ksvmvx56ryvnyd568xunex4j85en9v56rvwfkveck2wrnxeckwatyddenwer2w3n8x0mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2qgjwaehxw309ahkvenrdpskjm3wwp6kyf5qgdj asserts that Donald j trump upholds the judeo Christian values that make the USA what it is today.
Please educate me. Why don’t bitcoin and right libertarians line up.
You’re doing it again.
Touch grass, listen to some Ozzy. Actually fuck Ozzy, animal abuser.
Listen to some Tom Petty. He’s dead too.
Tom petty rules frfr
Bitcoin is opposed to capitalism. The teachings of Jesus go against capitalism. Simple.
lol
Exactly the opposite on Jesus and Capitalism. You need to read a LOT of books and study a LOT of history.
What we have now in the world, central Governments creating dependency world wide, stealing our energy/work with fiat, and feeding the world fake food (seed oils, wheat, sugar) is against capitalism - and ruining humanity.
Read the book, "Bitcoin and the Bible" -
You need to research who’s tables Jesus was flipping and why.
Now you’re blaming central governments for things brought to you by the race to the bottom capitalist goods and services. I live paying more for shittier stuff to keep the shareholders pockets lined for creating absolutely no proof of work at all
That's not the capitalist, it's the money.
Even if you make better stuff today, it won't sell - you are in a downward spiral created by fiat.
Read all of nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skueqpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqqgzr08nkh7nk4q9cmw02wkfprkgtk0n8kgszlzyqe384ll3qv5rp453f6g5h books and it will make sense. It's a deep read by "Principles of Economics" does a medium dive into this - not deep - but also not the first book on history of money someone should read.
Your perspective is a HUGE problem - because the solution is truly Capitalism with good/services - AND with money (private fixed real money, not fiat).
Study #Bitcoin - study hard - it's a once in a 1000 year opportunity. In a decade Bitcoin will grow with the productivity of humanity. First it has to eat all the misdirected capital (which is what you are frustrated with). And the growth is a 100X in a decade or two (sorta depends on how bad we mismanage the world fiat system).
I’m fully aware of bitcoin and what it is. I’ve also read saifdeans bitcoin standard I believe right when it came out. I enjoyed it. Especially the bits about the history of money and its nature as a technology.
Unfortunately though, I feel the same way about your perspective. I defended capitalism for decades until I couldn’t anymore. I’ve also considered the argument that our current environment isn’t true capitalism. While I understand where it comes from I still see it as an appeal to purity.
If I remember correctly Ammous characterizes rent seeking behaviors as a negative feature of fiat which I agree with. However rent seeking is not exclusive to fiat currencies. Bitcoin is superior to gold in almost every way but gold is still a good money and most bitcoiners know it’s long history. That history includes gold as payment for rent. It’s clear to me that this rent seeking is not only enabled by capitalistic behavior but encouraged. Rent seeking and profit motives at the cost of workers is a feature of capitalism. You may find it ironic that understanding bitcoins proof of work mechanism is one of the main reasons that I now see capitalism for what it is. It inspires the non worker (capitalist) to extort the labor (proof of work) of the worker. It depends on extracting wealth from others.
The period between WW2 and the 70’s saw a shrinking wealth gap brought about by a hybrid economy of capitalism under a high amount of government regulation as well as strong labor unions. Reagan’s administration destroyed both of those driving forces that mitigated the rampant inequality of capitalism and now we see a wealth divide that seems like the gilded age 2.0.
The proliferation of fiat may very well have been the last nail in the coffin but at best capitalism exacerbated it but I suspect it is actually responsible for pushing us in the coffin in the first place. I do not refute that there a few benefits to capitalism, but the same is true for other economic systems like socialism and communism as well. The benefits definitely do not outweigh the costs. I don’t claim to have an answer for a replacement of our current structure but I’m quite certain I will never defend capitalism again.
"The period between WW2 and the 70’s saw a shrinking wealth gap brought about by a hybrid economy of capitalism under a high amount of government regulation as well as strong labor unions. "
That's what history tells us. But it's not exactly right.
In the 1800's (still a real Gold standard) we invented trains, autos, electricity, communications - it was the last big 'bubble' of innovation (driven by hard money).
As this efficiency worked it's way into the economies of the world the wealth gap decreased for nearly 100 years. BUT - politicians implemented this thing in the early 1900's called the 'income tax' (temporary I might add) that actually ROBBED the general population for the next 100+ years of that efficiency (which created poverty we know today - it's true - central government planning creates poverty, not solve it). In spite of the income tax, wealth gap closed and the the politicians did not steel ALL the deflationary progress. They did not have too, they got filthy rich - it was an epic run!
We are at the end of that cycle - we have been for 50 years (the US dollar actually would have collapsed in the 70's if we did not cheat and go off the Gold standard - which had been decaying for decades).
Follow nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcqpqs05p3ha7en49dv8429tkk07nnfa9pcwczkf5x5qrdraqshxdje9sgew2ua and read his book "Price of Tomorrow" - great read. Deep dive it. Go beyond just the book - as Jeff says we have NEVER lived in a true free market until #Bitcoin.
Conclusion. Capitalism created all you have today. Fiat has been stealing the benefits and funneling it to those closest to the money printer for decades. Deflation is the natural state of Capitalism and once the theft (taxers and printing) are GREATER than the deflationary pressures of real economic gains, the pyramid collapses (which it is doing right now).
The natural state of human innovation is capitalism - the exchange of (base layer here) REAL energy for REAL energy (you catch a fish I trade for a fur to make a coat - exchange of ENERGY).
Bitcoin will bring us back to that as it's real human energy maximizing time preference of money (which drives innovation). nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skueqpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqqgzr08nkh7nk4q9cmw02wkfprkgtk0n8kgszlzyqe384ll3qv5rp453f6g5h book "Principles of Economics" does a great job explaining this concept.
Also deep dive history of civilization. It seems like this has nothing to do with money but capitalism with a currency (real money, not fake) was the ONLY combination that created civilization. Without it, we would still be in packs of 150 people or so living off the land.
"The proliferation of fiat may very well have been the last nail in the coffin but at best capitalism exacerbated it but I suspect it is actually responsible for pushing us in the coffin in the first place."
You are correct, fiat was/is the nail in the coffin of capitalism - it did NOT exacerbate it, but ruined it (history shows it always does) - we have been straying from capitalism for decades - over half a century. Some would say since the income tax over 100 years ago. World War solidified fiat.
Capitalism is just the REAL exchange of human energy - something you have that I want and something I have that you want. A 'currency' is needed because what you want is not always what I have - so it allows our ENERGY to be translated to a medium of exchange. IF that medium of echange does NOT represent real human energy (which #Bitcoin does and Gold did it okay but was ALWAYS corrupted) than capitalism dies.
Hate to see people get mislead on the Capitalism issue - remember the Communists (collectivist) have been hammering on real capitalism for centuries. Why? So a few can control the narrative/people/production/power.
Who cares what “Jesus” says. It’s all a myth anyways
400 people saw him after the crucifixion.
Plato has less written about him, but you believe Plato existed
You’re so smart. I’m converted!
Yes I’ve heard these arguments before.
🤷♀️
Nobody says Muhammed or Buddha as a swear
This proves it. Satan exists!
It proves that they believe in Jesus
I say Jesus fucking Christ all of the time. Probably has more to do with where I was born because I’ve yet to encounter any evidence whatsoever that any god exists. Lucky you to be born where the one true god is the most popular out of the thousands
Then why say it? You only say it because it's a sin to take the Lord's name in vain.
Who cares what a random anon calls a sin
Fuck Muhammad, Jesus and all the other fake gods
There is no god. It’s a meaningless thing to take a name in vain
Sure lol
Muhammed never claimed to be GOD.
The universe didn't create itself
Read a science book
Where does space come from?
Science only proves GOD more, but I get what you're saying.
You don’t get what I’m saying.
Science does not prove god more. Anything by Richard Dawkins is great. Peter Boggossian
This is true, but most his followers are zealots without knowledge.
Thought teachings opposed to usury. That word starts with a letter much further down the alphabet than capitalism. The alphabet is a series of letters used to represent sounds. We use those to make words which can use in order to read and write sentences which can assist in the passing on of knowledge. We call this learning. It’s pretty cool shit
It wasn’t usury.
We've got alot of education to do...I'll start
capitalism
noun
cap·i·tal·ism ˈka-pə-tə-ˌliz-əm ˈkap-tə-
: an economic system characterized by private ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market
Capitalism can’t exist in a free market. We got a lot of education to do. Go back and read Adam Smiths work.
I've read The Wealth of Nations and The Theory of Moral Sentiments. I didnt have that as a take-away. Are you thinking of some different?
Well, Adam Smith literally states that you need limited government, so yes, that is my take away. Who decides what’s your property and who defends that title for you?
What did Adam Smith warn about with #capitalism?
the word "capitalism." emerged in the 19th century, to describe the economic system that Smith’s ideas in The Wealth of Nations (1776) helped shape. Smith used terms like "commercial society" or "system of natural liberty" to describe a market-driven economy where individuals pursue self-interest under minimal government interference, which aligns with what we now call capitalism.
Okay, thank you for some google searches. When you said “minimal government interference” is that free markets?
Nah.
nostr:npub1as4sff7klh4d5vdxg5ec5jajwp43r8w6rhnf264t520cy0ph79zqkrvfdz Are you one of the people that doesn’t believe in Jesus - but is also an expert on Jesus ?
Every time.
It reminds me of this amazing hilarious cartoon video of atheists declaring they don’t believe in Jesus ‘but he definitely would not do……’
I would not say expert but I studied the Bible for 10 years and pretty well versed. But correct, I do not think god had sex with a virgin from “heaven” to make a son die to condemn some and save some.
Bitcoin isn't opposed to anything. It isn't sentient. Good grief 🤦
It doesn’t take a conscious for two objects or ideologies to oppose one and another. Think about magnets.
😂 That's one of the dumbest comparisons I've come across in a long time.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Maybe you need to reply with a more cogent response and we could clarify together.
I'm not the one coming up with absurd statements such as Bitcoin opposes capitalism and then compares that to magnets. Goodbye.
No no my friend, I didn’t compare bitcoin to magnets. You made the statement that it was sentient and therefore could oppose anything…I was pointing out the flaw in such a statement. Goodbye buddy.
what? can you explain both of those?
hahahaha! this should be good.
I'm not sure why I feel compelled to enter into these exchanges. They definitely help me clarify my thinking but not sure they serve much more purpose than that!
Bitcoin is proof of work, capitalism is not. The only time Jesus got physically mad was to flip the tables of those profiting off others.
My understanding of his anger was that business was happening in the temple, not that it was about profit. Did he really think that no one should earn from their labor? If someone grows food and sells it to someone who needs food, Jesus would get mad because that means the former is profiting off of the latter? I'm no expert on the Bible, but that sounds very odd to me.
Current "capitalism" as practiced in most countries is probably more proof of stake than of work, but that's the "crony" part of crony capitalism and in any case based on a monopoly over the money supply, which is about as far from capitalism as one can get.
If we replace the words "free trade" for "capitalism" do you still think bitcoin is in opposition to it?
Let’s just start with the first sentences and question. He was angry that people were profiting in his fathers house (one could argue the whole world is his house) and they were profiting off those buying sacrifices for god AND didn’t have much. Sacrifices were essential to their way of living, and profiting off the people for this angered him.
Nobody said anything about not being compensated for work performed. Profit and compensation are not the same.
profit is simply that you make more on a trade than you put into it. Could be marginally more or much more, depending on the situation.
"Profiting off of others' [work, misery, situation]" can certainly be morally questionable. Still, I would argue that any system that imposes restrictions to limit this - because a few folks get to decide on that morality - is far more problematic.
That's not a case you're making but I'm not sure how to limit that (essentially how to prevent ppl from being assholes) without creating a far worse situation.
I am an anarchist at heart and wish to change people’s ideology and not rely on force from the State. However, my endeavors are met with staunch resistance as I am called a communist and a socialist.
But, if you think about it, if #capitalism met the needs of the majority, there would be no stomach or room for social policies.
#bitcoin nostr:npub1rtlqca8r6auyaw5n5h3l5422dm4sry5dzfee4696fqe8s6qgudks7djtfs
I wonder if most of the disagreement is semantic. Many folks use "capitalism" interchangeably with "free trade," so when they hear you coming out strongly against capitalism, they assume you are advocating for central planning.
Do you have an example of a capitalist society? In my view, central banking precludes capitalism, and in fact encourages corporatism - which knocks out most present-day countries from consideration.
First paragraph is spot on.
I tend to start out by asking the capitalist if they have a society or time period of “true” capitalism that I can study. None have risen to the question.
But I do think that “their” misunderstanding of what free markets are and capitalism is not my fault. If you act like you know something, but clearly have not read anything other than quotes…you deserve some ridicule.
I would argue capitalism always turns “crony” and so would Adam Smith.
Yes - makes sense to me.
Haven't read Adam Smith - is on my list. But I can see this.
Kind of how democracy can devolve into whatever we have now in so many countries.
It is refreshing to have a conversation with someone open minded. I can assure you, if you can present a sound case with logic and reason, I will capitulate on my opinions as well.
Adam Smith is a must read, as well as Joseph Schumpeter.
If we replace capitalism with free trade, then no, bitcoin does not oppose free trade. Very insightful question, thank you for asking that.
Wut? Last time I checked free market capitalism and bitcoin go hand in hand.
Capitalism cannot exist in a free market. Read Adam Smiths works.
His arguments directly support the coexistence of capitalism and free markets.
That is an oxymoron. Free markets means I’m free to beat your ass and take what you claim is yours.
Capitalism relies of socialized protection and court system to uphold your rights to whatever property you claim.
I don't think that is what free markets mean at all.
Oh, well what is your definition of free markets? Or hell, what is your definition of free?
I agree with those definitions but unrestricted doesn't mean you can assault someone to take their property.....it means no government intervention.
Unfortunately my friend, “free” and “free markets” mean exactly that.
Ever heard the phrase “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
I know it sucks, but you my friend are defending a position you do not know so well.
You have to have a governing body or a group of consenting peoples to rules for capitalism to exist. Those things are called government intervention. Who defends your property rights now?
I don't see how having a government that enforces private property rights prevents having a free market.
Does any of these definitions work?
Free market capitalism was forged in the furnace of Christendom
Free market doesn’t mean what you think it does…and this is so far fetched I’m gonna to guess you are making fun of Christians.
I started writing this then used #Grok to finish it for more comprehensive verse references:
Jesus wasn't advocating for centralized economic control; he emphasized personal agency, diligence, and stewardship. Biblical evidence aligns him with authentic capitalism:
- He affirmed private property through the Decalogue's prohibitions against theft and covetousness, forming the bedrock of ownership and voluntary exchange (Exodus 20:15,17; Matthew 19:18-19).
- The Parable of the Talents commends entrepreneurial investment and risk-taking for profit, while condemning indolence—epitomizing market-driven innovation (Matthew 25:14-30).
- He asserted that laborers merit their wages, underscoring merit-based compensation over entitlements (Luke 10:7).
- In the Vineyard Parable, he defended employers' autonomy in wage agreements, highlighting contractual freedom and private enterprise (Matthew 20:1-16).
- By linking self-love to neighborly love, he implied that rational self-interest, via mutual trades, fosters communal good—not avarice, but enlightened reciprocity (Matthew 22:39).
- Echoing Pauline doctrine, he endorsed the principle that idleness forfeits sustenance, fueling capitalism's ethos of productivity and meritocracy (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
- The Talents narrative tacitly approves interest accrual, portraying capital growth as expected and virtuous (Matthew 25:27).
- Granting humanity dominion over creation encourages resourceful utilization, better realized in free markets than coercive redistribution (Genesis 1:28).
Well done. “The truth will set you free”
Why did Jesus flip tables?
He was against usury
The was not the reason, but I’m sure you can use the internet to find a copy of the Bible.
Jesus wasn’t focused on condemning interest (usury) per se in this moment. He was defending the sanctity of God’s house protesting how commerce and greed had polluted what was supposed to be a place of reverence and inclusion.
Jesus was a capitalist. “ But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Mat. 20:13-15
That verse does not make Jesus a capitalist at all.
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." -Matthew 6:24
Either you have to change the words of Jesus in the Bible, or change the tenets of capitalism. Can’t have both. This verse is not even up for interpretation…it says what it says. Case closed.
“Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things?”
This is a prime of example of how the owner asserts control over his property a key tenet of capitalism. Also, capitalism values individual ownership and the freedom to dispose of property and wealth as one sees fit.
How about “freedom of contract?”
“Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius?” The landowner and laborers entered a voluntary agreement, which is a core element of free-market economics.
No coercion occurred the contracts were honored. Free market capitalism 101.
Lastly, unequal outcomes, equal agreements though the outcomes (wages vs. hours worked) are unequal in effort, the terms were fair by agreement. This mirrors capitalism where equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes.
Case closed? My friend, you just quoted Jesus warning against serving money, not using it. Capitalism isn’t about worshipping wealth it’s about freedom. And freedom, like grace, doesn’t cease to be good just because some people abuse it.
Jesus flipping tables wasn’t a protest of trade it was a protest of corruption. You want to put Mammon on trial? Fine. But don’t drag free enterprise into the defendant’s chair without understanding the difference.
Jesus didn’t preach capitalism but He also didn’t command central planning. The problem isn’t making money; it’s the LOVE of money.
If you’re a Christian you should
re-read Ecclesiastes and if you’re not maybe start with John?
You are so confused that you try to re interpret a quote that is very clear. Capitalism is clearly the pursuit of profit. Profit is typically measured in money.
You can twist, turn, and cherry pick quotes all you want, you cannot change that quote I shared and Jesus said love thy enemy.
Whatever mental gymnastics you like to do in order to sleep, do it, just don’t think you are always speaking to someone who doesn’t know more about the Bible than you.
You’re right I would never presume to know more about the Bible than you. It’s only by His grace I know any scripture at all. In fact, the more I learn the more I realize how little I actually know.
“The humble He guides in justice, And the humble He teaches His way.” Psalm 25:9
People used those some of those same quotes to justify slavery. Different era, same shit.
You’re right I would never presume to know more about the Bible than you. It’s only by His grace I know any scripture at all. In fact, the more I learn the more I realize how little I actually know.
“The humble He guides in justice, And the humble He teaches His way.” Psalm 25:9
Very interesting given that even Jewish law prohibited usury, though, admittedly, does allow it when dealing with non-Jews.
Though, there are equity based banking models as well. Yield isn't synonymous with usurious interest based lending.
This is genuinely one of the most interesting things I've seen on Nostr🤣
Have you read the 10th commandment? "Go get your own."
Awww, this reminds me of Jennifer Aniston. Also, I bet you felt good posting this didn’t you? Lol
nostr:nprofile1qqswc2cy5lt0m6k6xxny2vu2fwe8q6c3nhdpme54d24698uz8smlz3qpr9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummsv4hx7unyv4uzummjvuq3yamnwvaz7tmsw4e8qmr9wpskwtn9wvtr47fd Oh please expand. I can’t wait to hear your explanation of this one 🍿
Ask a question, I would love to.
Er… The question is already implied…, How is Bitcoin opposed to capitalism, and how do the teachings of Jesus go against capitalism?
Bitcoin is proof of work, capitalism is proof of stake. Jesus flips tables when people profit from the poor. Also camel, needle, rich man, and heaven kind of shit. Sorry, thought that answer was implied.
Proof of work/stake being either christian or non-christian is a ridiculous argument. The methods are irrelevant. That's like saying addition is secular and multiplication is christian. It's what you do with it that determines how much it is aligned with ideologies.
Jesus didn't go around to marketplaces attempting to disrupt business exchanges. As a carpenter he had many marketplace interactions himself. He "turned tables" when they tried turning his fathers house into a marketplace. Christianity champions individual responsibility, diligence, and the wise stewardship of God-given talents, all cornerstones of free market capitalism, where innovation flourishes, and voluntary exchange empowers individuals. Free market capitalism which, by the way, you can never have under a fiat money system that controls who the winners are. Jesus encouraged dignity of honest work, the right to build and create, and the profound generosity that springs from prosperity. Far from being at odds, a vibrant faith tradition finds its economic reflection in the freedom to produce, to serve, and to give. This isn't just theory; it's the bedrock of a society where enterprise meets ethics, enriching lives and fostering true community.
Was not saying Jesus was against proof of stake, that pertained only to bitcoin and capitalism.
I can tell you rely on Christianity for a large portion of who you are…good for you.
Let’s take religion out of the equation and just say free markets and capitalism are not synonymous. Capitalism relies on State coercion and enforcement to exist.
Sounds like you’re not talking about free market capitalism then are you? The masses believe actual capitalism is correctly represented by the corporate led economy we see today. Is that your belief as well?
I can only rely on the parameters set by those who champion capitalism. Capitalism can NOT exists without government intervention, therefore, there is no free market capitalism…unless you want to change the definition of free markets.
“…set by those who champion capitalism” interesting since the classics have been stricken from most curriculums over the past 30years by the captured 95+ democrat educators they’ve installed. Whole generations don’t know what capitalism is.
Free markets and capitalism are natural states. They can of course be facilitated and supported by government but they exist naturally in the absence of governments. Here are some correct definitions.
Free Markets: a system of voluntary peaceful, mutually beneficial trades between free individuals without government interference. Prices are determined by supply and demand, free from coercion or regulation. Fostering an environment where innovation, quality, variety and affordability are incentivized naturally by the preferences and choices of individuals.
Capitalism: the economic system that emerges naturally from free markets, where private property, individual liberty, and voluntary exchange are paramount. It maximizes personal freedom and economic efficiency through unrestrained production, and supply and demand. Naturally incentivizing mutual protection of property rights, agreements, and preventing monopolies. Able to exist without any state role, it is commerce with the fullest expression of individual freedom and non-aggression.
These definitions come from some of the strongest and experts and advocates of capitalism. If you disagree with them then let’s hear your definitions.
Free Markets: a system of voluntary peaceful, mutually beneficial trades between free individuals without government interference. Prices are determined by supply and demand, free from coercion or regulation. Fostering an environment where innovation, quality, variety and affordability are incentivized naturally by the preferences and choices of individuals.
This is copy and pasted from your last response. To be clear, I do not disagree with it. But, free markets have nothing to do with capitalism. I’m not sure how you are confused on that and I want to understand where you are not understanding.
If you have “property rights” AND need to enforce those property rights, AND need a court system to settle disputes on property rights…where do you think or how do you think that all happens? Who pays for it? Who decides who plays what roles? Surely you can see what I’m saying now.
I think the only person I quoted was you, at the beginning of my post. The rest is my written definition based on 25years of following pinnacle champions of capitalism like Rothbard, Bastiat, Hayek, Mises, Sowell, Freedman, and so on.
It would seem that your belief that capitalism as we defined here is dependent on government protected property rights. Why? Nature already solves for this. Free people work to create, claim and maintain valuable property as their own. As such they allow others to do the same. For the infrequent times where those who don’t respect this natural system try to violate it and steal from others, others have the ability they were born with to protect it them selves. Where disputes occur government can be a tool but isn’t required. People can go to whatever lengths they prefer to reach fair agreement. If disrespect for the system and theft becomes predominant then the system and its benefits diminish and society suffers. So it would seem that although having a procapitalism government as a protector could be helpful, it is not required. Rather, what is required is a people who respect and protect the natural capitalism system and everyone’s rights to property and ability to freely exchange. Government isn’t required and furthermore can be corrupted and become the largest hinderance. …which is where we are today.
What’s the earliest form of property rights?
Do you know who Adam Smith is?
What period of time did capitalism operate without intervention?
Property is a natural human right so, …the earliest form possible. All of this occurs and exists naturally the moment people begin to exist and interact. If two people just appeared in the woods together they’d trade things for their own beneifit and you have one key component of capitalism—a free market. You sound, like many, stuck in the common mindset that nothing can occur without government. That’s belief is one of the most beneficial to governments and authoritarians who want control over people. …While everything actually does function before government exists. Government is introduced as an efficiency tool but comes with the danger of monopolizing the whole system till it is anything but efficient and becomes the largest problem. Everyone agrees to hire a town sheriff to make it easier to protect their properties from violators but with every amount of power the people give him, he can misuse it for his own benefit. And if he acquires a majority of power he can do whatever he pleases, essentially eliminating freedom of all people entirely. So with government comes the heavy responsibility to keep it small, in check, and subordinate to people and their natural human rights.
Nope, I’m an anarchist. Property rights cannot exist without enforcement. It was a trick question that you somehow superseded the research of all anthropologists and historians to claim that property rights and capitalism always existed.
You should publish a paper on this and reap the accolades of such a profound discovery.
I see your points and sure I agree with Adam Smith. Much of what he wrote didn’t focus so much to natural human rights. He was more concerned with defining how an economic system could be governed and saw government as an inevitability. Which it is, like power tools are an eventual inevitability for construction.
However Smith does not make the absolute claim that property cannot exist without an empowered government intermediary or authority. Instead, he said the basis of property arises naturally from human labor, possession, and social recognition (see his discussions of early societies and moral sentiments for that).
Experts aside… truth speaks for itself. Citations are helpful sure, but especially if you are dependent on statements from an authority or expert. In the end, all individuals will disagree on something.
In summary… “Property rights cannot exist without enforcement” from who? Only government? In my example of two people in the woods naturally trading, they mutually enforce each other’s property. No government intermediary needed. However everything they are doing to self-govern that situation is inline with Adam smith. So if you simply expand your definition of government to include self-governance by the individual parties then we probably agree. But it sounds like you would restrict your definition of government to require the empowerment of an intermediary over the parties.
Your first paragraph contradicts the last thing you wrote to me.
But hey, if it makes you happy, make capitalism into whatever you like. It’s perfectly clear that if these things are “natural”, in your eyes, there is no argument. There is nothing anyone can say. You cannot logic and reason your way out of something you did not reason your way into.
DEBATE UPDATE:
This started with my desire for you to substantiate your claims that “Bitcoin is opposed to capitalism” and “The teachings of Jesus go against capitalism.”
Farthest we got on those was that after I pointed out that Jesus participated in capitalism you wanted to get away from religion so we moved to define capitalism. After my defining and substantiation that free markets, capitalism and property rights occur naturally. You provided in your last post comments that were not specific enough to be meaningful, and seem to show you feel unwilling or unable to make further progress.
CURRENT CLAIM STATUS:
“Bitcoin is opposed to capitalism”
= UNSUBSTANTIATED
“The teachings of Jesus go against capitalism.“
= REFUTED
——
Since you show deep belief that governmental authority must be involved, I’ll assume your statement that you’re an anarchist was a joke, and that you’d like to empower an intermediary to validate this debate update.
If you need that I nominate nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgpvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33wf6xcutrvyu8ydnpw4ukzae4dc6ksvmvx56ryvnyd568xunex4j85en9v56rvwfkveck2wrnxeckwatyddenwer2w3n8x0mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2qgcwaehxw309ac8yetdd96k6tnswf5k6ctv9ehx2aqyxwxz8 😃
lol, like a pigeon strutting around the chess table kicking and shitting claiming victory! Go claim your prize.
Mmmk 🤔 You can concede, forfeit, or further substantiate your claims and maintain your integrity. Ad hominem attacks are none of these. They seek to discredit opponents and retain the appearance of continued persistance while detracting from the goal of substanting your claims.
Matthew 6:24
New International Version
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Here you go Christian. Explain.
Your reason for choosing this could be several. I can assume but shouldn’t. Tell me how you think it supports your claim/s and I’ll respond.
One because it was words of Jesus. Two, it’s very clear and can’t be twisted. Three, capitalism thrives of self interest motivation of profits…money.
Pretty simple really. “Serving“ money as someone “serves” their God is its own end purpose. It is worship as though the money is your God and the most important thing.
In contrast “pursuing” money can have many other purposes including being generous to others and helping the poor and needy.
Beinf “selfish” is not the same as tending to your own “self-interests” or personal needs. Same reason you have to spend time becoming healthy in order to serve others well, or put your oxygen mask on first to breathe in order to help many others breathe. It scales well too. The more fit you are and the better you can breathe the larger the masses you can help.
So the purposes of pursuing money for generosity align well with the purpose of capitalism—to provide mutual benefit and ongoing increase to all through simple free fair trade, and fostering increased freedom, agency, responsibility and mutual respect (and love :)).
So basically the ends justify any means. It’s okay to take from “here” and give to “there”?
I’m trying slow the movement of the target, so bear with with me please.
No. Oversimplifying or misrepresenting my specific statement, or generalizing it into an extreme or distorted version (suggesting “anything goes” or implying it condones something bad) to make it easier to attack would be a strawman fallacy
My statement means that specifically the pursuit of generosity justifies the means of free and fair markets to fund that generosity. …specifically.
Although free fair market capitalism is “justified” by many of it’s inherent benefits.
Believe me friend, I’m not trying to misrepresent. You are making broad statements and implying they are factual just because.
Do you have examples of this accumulation for only charitable purposes?
Also, still waiting for a time period of “true” capitalism.
To clarify… you want me to provide examples of charitable people or entities whose resources were acquired through capitalism in order to prove it is possible?
Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “waiting for a time period” of true capitalism.
Yes.
A time period or place where “true” capitalism was able to function without any interference.
Hey buddy, you were strutting around claiming some kind of victory, then abandoned me cause you didn’t want to answer two simple questions.
Do another one of your cute “Debate Updates” I got a good laugh out of that.
It sounds like you’re saying free and fair market capitalism is a strong way to generate wealth that can fuel generosity, like philanthropy or social good, and that this outcome justifies using capitalism as a tool. I agree capitalism has benefits, like innovation and efficiency, but I’m curious, do you think the pursuit of generosity is the main justification for capitalism, or just one of many? Also, how do you define free and fair markets in this context, given issues like inequality or monopolies?
Not only that, but you have also told Adam Smith that he had no idea what he was talking about…the “father” of capitalism.
This is why citations are important. It gives a concrete reference point for both parties and forces both parties to read instead of posting opinions as facts.
If you are going to quote please reference sources, if not, I will think you are using AI on a bias and that’s just sad.
Whew, that was a lot of responding this AM but I think I got everybody’s personal attacks covered and confused understandings on the way to clarity.
Now nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgpr9mhxue69uhhqatjv9mxjerp9ehx7um5wghxcctwvsqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsjnv598 would you like to continue?
If I were you, stop, pivot, let’s talk about something subjective like sports.
Oh yeah you’re the dude who hates capitalism. Didn’t we already debate??