Always so dumb to me when other bitcoiners get mad at me for having a retirement account lol
Like yes I have an account that allows me to pay no taxes on my bitcoin gains if I wait 35 years. It’s kind of the most low time preference Bitcoin and libertarian things i can think of.
Roth IRA’s are based af.
If you don’t have one yet… you should.
Haters gonna hate. Means you're doing something right. We need polarizing ideas here. Somes it's too quiet and frictionless here.
I agree, worth the small stack you can throw in it every year
yeah but no, its not the most libertarian thing having a fiat credit denominated in whatever that promise you a good taxation, with years of different legislations in front of you to try to steal your money in many ways (freezing it cause you are a bad guy bitcoiner, raising taxations cause your plan has been unfairly profitable respct to what the normie retarded have selected, and so on...).
I'll do it with maximum a 5-10% of my stack, doing it with more is lame IMO.
Exactly. You have no control of their rules in their system. Not sure how this is libertarian lol
what income system is built within the Bitcoin network, at least besides mining?
stacking, hodl and spend. We live in a timeframe where if in your early life you are consistent with stacking and hodling from your early life, when you will retire you will have all the resources you need to "only-spend".
Not too much places accept bitcoin today and the UX for spending need a lot of work, but things are improving.
Even without the improving, someone can swap monthly or yearly some of the funds retirements in fiat, and spend fiat to cover the expenses, but never "save in fiat".
what else do you need? Or, what the fiat income system offer that do you miss?
spending Bitcoin is a final option. if we build up a Fiat revenue stream, the goal is to never have to spend real money, and if we build that revenue stream large enough, we can keep buying.
this sound fine, but a more ambitious goal would be build a bitcoin revenue stream so to avoid taxation and goverment abuse on spending. I think in some years would be reasonably possible for most people, we will see.
Thus back to my question, what revenue streams other than mining are built into Bitcoin itself that people can use to stack? I don't think there are any, which means we have to show "proof of work" either mining or trading time to earn it directly. And if we are mining, every transaction including mining a block is a taxable event. At least until someone declares that they are not.
What if your bitcoin becomes tax free in your jurisdiction? Congress making bitcoin transaction’s equal to cash as non taxable is already on the table. By the time I retire I expect this to happen. Then you essentially could have stacked sats the whole time and held your own keys. There is a solid chance risking your capital by giving control of your bitcoin to others for essentially no added benefit
"what if" doesn't pay the bills. until that happens, we deal with it by focusing on tax shelters.
You’re essentially playing a “what if” by assuming your Roth doesn’t change the age of retirement, the qualifications to access your money and the rules our government makes around these types of accounts. Plus if I want to retire, and there’s taxes on my bitcoin, I get on a plane with 12 words in my head and then go live tax free with my family somewhere that makes sense financially. Think you’re missing the point
you are correct, those risks do exist. and I accept those risks by using the system. if the rules were changed to erase the tax shelters of Roth accounts, I think the entire country would erupt. our congresscritters are stupid, but I don't think they are self destructive.
being an expat is not a tax shelters.
With a Roth the government has a VERY strong incentive to keep it in place unchanged, they get more tax revenue now. Governments always prefer more money now versus in the future because they have terrible time preference. Conversely they have a very strong incentive to tax Bitcoin as it goes up massively in value and little incentive not to. Game theory supports Roth remaining in place. There’s no guarantees, but it’s more likely than not.
Few thoughts:
1) tax policy can be uncertain and expecting the government to not tax Bitcoin consistently for the next XX number of decades is a heck of a financial risk. That’s such a huge honeypot it’s hard for me to imagine zero taxes on any large asset forever. Politicians change and political parties fall in and out of favor with every cycle. Trump is not our last president and an anti-Bitcoin president in 20 years if the masses get jealous is totally possible, who knows.
2) Could always do some in and some out of an IRA. Doesn’t have to be all or nothing.
3) you can do an Unchained IRA and keep self custody. Zero custodial risk
Thanks for the well thought response, I appreciate it. You have a lot of valid points
Agreed. However the taxes when you take distributions are going to be nasty. Maybe borrow instead.
No that’s the point. Roth distributions are tax free. The money you put in is after tax.
There’s no taxes on a Roth at distribution
Wait, why you choose to leave your capital in a system that is being constantly debased? Why not just pay your electricity bill and mine as much as you want to save (or can afford to save). No paper trail and no taxes either. Plus, most likely your “savings” will increase in value in dollar terms in the long run. Plus, you help the network. 
I believe we will gradually transition onto a bitcoin standard. If that happens, there will still be equities providing value to the market place in hopes of earning more bitcoin. MSTR will be one of the those companies earning more bitcoin.
Speaking from experience, mining is a very difficult and competitive route to earning sats. MSTR will outperform any mining operation over the next 15 years.
Speaking from experience mining with one S9. I have been able to profitably heat my garage in the winter. I’m my experience those minig hours at a loss have been offset by price increases in the long run. My point is rather that for someone in the position of nostr:npub1rtlqca8r6auyaw5n5h3l5422dm4sry5dzfee4696fqe8s6qgudks7djtfs to say “ you should have a Tax free savings account “ is odd to me.
You definitely should not start one if you’re Gen Z or younger. But for us old millennials we had some decent capital trapped from years ago that we wanted to go out on the risk curve with.
Agree!. Different situation between new after tax earned money and pension money that is utterly tied to the legacy system
It’s also important to mention that nostr:npub1rtlqca8r6auyaw5n5h3l5422dm4sry5dzfee4696fqe8s6qgudks7djtfs and I have been staking a longtime so 90%+ of our bitcoin stack is not in MSTR. We just plugged our dead 401ks and Roth IRAs into the bitcoin network using MSTR.
You can only put $8000/year in here in the US. I don't think nostr:npub1rtlqca8r6auyaw5n5h3l5422dm4sry5dzfee4696fqe8s6qgudks7djtfs cares about something that minuscule
What you’re doing is illegal in America. If you have a home mining operation you have to pay income tax on the coin earned.
Wouldn't it only matter when you go to sell?
No, it’s considered income. You might be able to get some deductions since you own a capital asset (miners) that depreciate, but idk all the details around that for home mining
No. It’s income at the time it’s mined.
I’m not an accountant but if I don’t sell it how it can be income. Manhattan’s Real estate moguls have been doing this forever. They never sell their properties and just keep borrowing against them. They don’ pay taxes on this dollars because is a liability on their balance sheet. They use this dollars to generate the cash flow to pay interest. Rinse and repeat not illegal at all. Is it different with commodities such as Bitcoin or gold?
First, i’m, not advocating for people to do anything illegal.I’m asking questions because I really trying to learn here. So according to what you are saying I owe “unrealized capital gains” for the sats that I mined in my garage. But, what conversion rate should I use to calculate my tax burden if I have not sold?
At the time they hit your wallet. That’s your cost basis and they’re treated as income. If you’re in America you should really talk to an accountant bro.
what sats?
UPDATE: on the legality of a home mining operation. Where I live you only have to REPORT the coins at “fair market price” when they hit your wallet. However, this is not a taxable event. And even then you only pay income taxes on 50% of your coins when you sell them (if you are not an industrial operation). Or you can never sell and borrow against them as they appreciate (like Manhattan’s real estate). So my comment stands, it makes no sense to bury newly earned money on a legacy system “Tax free savings account”. I checked a couple of other countries in America (the continent) and the taxable event is when you sell the coins. So, in most of America(the continent) is legal as long as you report it. But apparently this is not the case in the United States according to some people here.
Whether you pay taxes before or after is irrelevant, it'll turn out to be the exact same amount of money relative to interest earned.
This is mathematically false. If you chart out the math and assume various % rates of return you get very different results in paying taxes now versus later. Trying using an online compound interest calculator and remove a chunk or the principal to simulate a Roth if you don’t believe it.
You do you, but trusting government thiefs is not being a Bitcoiner
Buncha wierdos. Roth's are just fine.
If bitcoin hasn’t completely taken over and made fiat investment inventions obsolete in 35 years, we probably reached Armageddon. Still no taxes tho, so you’re right either way.
Also, I wish we hadn’t named it after the guy. Canada just calls it a TFSA (Tax Free Savings Account). Much less confusing in an already confusing fiat world.
You can, but don't expect the rules to be the same in 35 years.
You don't need an IOU account with arbitrarily set rules to let you not pay taxes...
Leaving the US also makes the need to consider this almost entirely unnecessary.
Just have to leave and renounce before you net worth hits the exit tax level
NoKYC fixes this :p
Tell that to Roger Ver and he had a huge no KYC stack. Bitcoin is massively traceable. If you have a huge stack that you spend or lend against in any capacity it will most likely be found out. Avoiding KYC is great but it’s just not true to say it’s a panacea from taxes.
Bitcoin is, its true. Unless you buy it with #monero, or cash, and use half-decent OPSEC from there.
I lose less sleep from disobeying my govt vs obeying them. Having met a few MPs, I have zero faith in their integrity or good sense.
*Laughs in German tax law*
I am going to ask for one for Christmas ^^
As Einstein once said “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”
401K's is where Blackrock, State Street and Vanguard get all their money and power to push this woke Marxist insanity onto every company on the stock market.
More specifically they got it through passive indexation and zirp
401K's are managed by Blackrock, Vanguard, and State Street, as well done smaller investment firms. People invest in their 401K by giving money to those investment firms.
When they give money to those firms, they also hand over their proxy vote to those firms, so Blackrock and friends have the money and the voting power.
Blackrock is the single manager of the federal employee 401K plan known as the TSP (Thrift Savings Plan). Blackrock probably gets over half of it's money and power from the federal employee 401K investment plan.
not your keys tho
Totally agree. End game is being smart/set up for future. Haters gonna hate 🤷♂️🤝✌️
I think the flaw is believing that tax law is as immutable as the Bitcoin blockchain.
Plenty of examples in other countries that decided to raid retirement savings when they got into trouble.
If you believe Bitcoin will succeed that includes scenarios where the US dollar fails. In a scenario where the US dollar fails, they will try to steal as much as possible before that failurw. This might include taxing any retirement acc worth more than $X.
Roth accounts allow the government to collect more tax revenue now. Game theory supports they will continue to want more money now at the expense of the future because they have terrible time preference. No guarantees but the case for Roths sticking around is solid.
This logic is a better argument against 401k and traditional IRAs than Roths as those former 2 reduce taxes now.
Cashed n closed
Wait, why you choose to leave your capital in a system that is being constantly debased? Why not just pay your electricity bill and mine as much as you want to save (or can afford to save). No paper trail and no taxes either. Plus, most likely your “savings” will increase in value in dollar terms in the long run. Plus, you help the network. 
Especially when company matches are a thing. Why would I leave free money on the table?
Isn't that just sucking the government's tit with extra steps?
Can’t do it in Ireland so my employer pension just sits there basically in cash. We can only buy 1/10 preset funds. So shit
Sometimes people get mad at the dumbest shit. If there is any vehicle that you can take advantage of and make gains like a good retirement account then one should do it. It doesn't make any good financial sense not too.
The reason is that people lie to them and tell them the dollar and US government are gonna go away tomorrow
Agree. There are options like Unchained’s where you can have an IRA and self custody. It’s empirically false to say it’s either have an IRA or do self custody. You can do both.
Hell no! I don't have that much faith in my govt.
In Japan, retirement accounts have to invest 40% in federal bonds.
I just know my govt itching to do the same, and well before I retire.
Its a NoKYC pirate's life for me!
Same dude same 🫡
