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**Bitcoiners should do the work and figure out self-custodied lightning.** Yes, even for pocket change. Yes, even if it means you can't see zaps.

If normies or casuals end up using custodial solutions, that sucks, but it's entirely predictable. But if you are all-in on the ethos of bitcoin as a tool that enables self-sovereign control over money, then help us keep the culture alive.

Lightning has a lot of issues and the direction of how this ecosystem plays out is in a bit of a precarious state. The barrier to entry for running and managing a lightning node is high. I get it. But if the most hardcore bitcoiners aren't willing to forgo trusted third party intermediaries, then we're sowing the seeds for lightning to become a network of centralized, trusted service providers from top to bottom.

If there's no demand from bitcoiners for improved self-custody UX, then people aren't going to build solutions. Every bitcoiner who chooses to sacrifice self-sovereignty for convenience is ever so slightly tipping the scales towards a culture that favors such expediency.

I don't think this is hyperbole. Lightning is super early and this is precisely the time to set a strong cultural foundation because it will only get worse over time as we've seen with on-chain bitcoin.

If an idiot like me can do the work and figure it out, you can too.

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Discussion

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

👏👏👏

#[0]

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Sovereignty Zapped to your sovereign LN node, no 3rd-parties necessary 😎

The feeling of *actually using Lightning* is incredible, can't wait for tooling to improve and more people to take a bit of personal responsibility and dive into using Lightning properly.

TK 2y ago

Dude yes. I find it extremely rewarding despite hiccups here and there.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

💯

Love seeing more people actually apply high time preference to *using Bitcoin* and putting in the work, rather than just "stacking sats".

SirJamzAlot 2y ago

do you mean, running a node, opening multiple channels with in bound and outbound liquidity, and balancing those channels?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Yes.

bitcoinaz 2y ago

"If there's no demand from bitcoiners for improved self-custody UX, then people aren't going to build solutions."

#Bitcoin #Lightning Network

#[0]

monk_cactus 2y ago

So many words spilled, so much hand wringing, for something so straightforward.

If there was a simple solution for lnurl, hardly anyone would be using custodians for zaps.

The scales aren’t being tipped, there will be no entrenchment or switching costs. It’s just lnurl lmao

TK 2y ago

I'm not talking about just zaps/nostr, but using it to highlight a broader issue.

monk_cactus 2y ago

lightning will be a merchant and LSP driven technology. Whether or not it centralizes hinges on it’s permission-less nature and keeping regulatory moats out of the network. Not on whether or not plebs want to run a dedicated server or pay someone to manage that for them

signal_and_rage 2y ago

#[2] your response? 🎤

Mike Brock 2y ago

We are pursuing a self-custody-first strategy at TBD across the board. Nothing we are doing is geared towards enabling custodial solutions. Outside of TBD, we are currently in early beta testing of our self-custody Bitkey hardware wallet, for which Lightning support is a priority.

signal_and_rage 2y ago

You don’t think the average person will demand privacy from first-principles, but you think they will want self-custody?

Mike Brock 2y ago

Privacy and anonymity aren't the same thing. You're conflating what I'm saying.

signal_and_rage 2y ago

Yes, my apologies.

I guess the question is who do you want anonymity from. Clearly you want transactions to be know by the other party, at times you may or may not want your identity know by them, but does the transaction and the identity of the parties need to be known by financial institutions and the government? And does the average person even care about this question? Will all Bitkey transactions be known and ID’d by a financial institution and subpoenable by the government?

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

There is nothing to figure out. If you already run a node, you can self custody LN. The question is how to get more plebs to run nodes.

78e47dfe... 2y ago

Normies won't jump through hoops because you want self sovereignty.

You either build solutions which they can adopt or you are fucked.

0xtr 2y ago

Well said #[1] 👏

₿logging₿itcoin 2y ago

You're right. I'm shell shocked because I've had two rasberry pi's fail.

It's time to stop being such a cheap bastard and invest some sats in some proper hardware.

TK 2y ago

👑

Steven Day 2y ago

You can set this stuff up on cheap hardware. I know there is mixed opinions on using raspberry pi and I’m not a fan.

I bought a cheap mini desktop that runs Bitcoin core. I messed around with it to also set up vanilla LND as well. The hardware was under $150 + larger hard drive. Threw on Linux and I am good to go.

I use my pi for interesting projects and while my use case is on the higher end of the technical scale it’s probably worth it for some of these other out of the box nodes (umbrel, start9, etc).

₿logging₿itcoin 2y ago

Switched from wallet of satoshi to BTCpayServer. I had issues sending from lntipbot and there is no nip57 support yet, but custodial solutions do not align with the cypherpunk ethos of don't trust, verify.

I like WOS and respect what they are doing, but how can I tell people to avoid the next FTX if I trust WOS?

sommerfeld 2y ago

Many bitcoiners just want to cope and ignore the issue, believing it will solve itself, so its ok to use a bitcoin bank meanwhile😂

Gigi 2y ago

I agree, but zaps are also like 2 minutes old, it takes time to get this stuff done and provide fully self-sovereign solutions. Priorities.

TK 2y ago

I'm using zaps to highlight a broader issue with the current culture around lightning where self-sovereignty and privacy seem to be secondary concerns for bitcoiners. The number of bitcoiners using custodial lightning outside the context of nostr is fucking bananas

anonym 2y ago

There’s a lot of loneliness in this and every “space.”

In fact I’d postulate anyone who even uses the phrase “space” in terms of sitting alone and talking to strangers is by definition lonely.

It’s actually very sad, and a genuine health epidemic. (This is not hyperbole) Check on your people.

Guy Swann 2y ago

This is also a very good point. I think there is a degree of patience warranted at the same time. It’s not like all of this stuff can be built, implemented, & adopted overnight. All the more true when we are explicitly referring to those alternatives that are harder to implement & take more time to figure out.

SirGalahodl 2y ago

This is true but we should be developing and promoting good habits and not bad practices from the start.

Ronin 2y ago

I think blockstream with the new self custody greenlight will make things easier, also breez is working on it. There is already self custody LN wallets where you don't run your own node, like Phoenix and Bitkit but you dont get to have an LN address.

Guy Swann 2y ago

I really hate that Bitkit tools aren’t more widely implemented. For the small portion of the time I get to use it, it’s so fucking convenient.

BHN 🍁 2y ago

Can people setup nodes for people they know to use to help transition away from custodial?

This is similar to privacy irl. I can do so much masking my ip with tor, sandboxing browsers and having each generate fake IDs every 10min, using a VPN, using on device GPS routing, etc but I will still get tracked because a bunch of people decided to get Amazon doorbells.

Our privacy relies on most others caring about it as well it seems, which makes this an uphill battle.

Guy Swann 2y ago

I completely agree generally. But I don’t even think the major barrier is on the Lightning side. I think it’s DNS (At least it is for me)

I have plenty of non-custodial Lightning options and use them 99% of the time. But the second I have a simple solution to having a DNS address for payments or whatever replaces it to the bulk of those same wallets (cough BOLT12 cough) I will be all over it & will never go back.

TK 2y ago

I expect there to be a gradient of self-custody in a number of people's toolkits right now. When lightning was less reliable a few years ago, I've had to fall back on strike bc Tor was slow or I couldn't find a route.

I'm concerned about how bitcoiners choose to address existing gaps in self-custody. Just seeing how cheerfully people are flooding into custodial wallets is kind of disappointing. If you're gonna use a custodial solution, at least feel bad about it as a bitcoiner 😂

n3xB | Global Bitcoin Exchange Protocol on Nostr 2y ago

I have said it numerous times. The way Zap was deployed might as well have been an attack on Bitcoin.

Blue wallet took their custodial solution down. Shame on #[2] to keep their’s up.

There are plenty of non-custodial LN solutions that doesn’t require running a node. There’s zero need for a custodial solution. Zaps be damned.

n3xB | Global Bitcoin Exchange Protocol on Nostr 2y ago

#[2] is #[3]

n3xB | Global Bitcoin Exchange Protocol on Nostr 2y ago

Something wrong with tagging people with Damus it seems.

Decent. Dad 2y ago

Pardon the denseness, is there a blog post or something explaining the difference between custodial and non custodial LN, tradeoffs, why zaps are considered custodial etc?

4b39f0df... 2y ago

Hello. Have You tried Bitkit? It's seems like a combination of a hot wallet and a cold wallet. It's based on a DHT and completely encrypted and impenetrable. The problem is it still has some bugs

It looks like a perfect non custodial solution for businesses that want to accumulate a lot of sats before passing them to main chain without being spied or hacked by malicious actors.

What do you think about it ?