Nostr Web Client

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

*proponents

Parman - Activate OP_GFY now!! 2y ago

Nah

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Curious which part do you disagree with?

SMS 2y ago

Splitting headache

🫨

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BOL 2y ago

How about the part where a dubious influencooor claims a large anonymous miner claims miners will fork?

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yeh that was uncalled for.

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BOL 2y ago

Bitcoin has probably ossified at some level--which I see as a good thing

That said, as a Bible believer myself, Bitcoin will someday ultimately "fail" in the sense that it will get subsumed or somehow captured by the mark of the beast / worship of the beast system

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yeh I think it has. Been speaking to bip 119 author and CTV advocates and they seem to think there isn’t much hope pushing any chances to btc core anymore.

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BOL 2y ago

My "pet" fork , which would be a hard fork, haha, would be to tighten monetary policy (I.e. reduce block reward) in order to induce price hyperbitcoinization and pre-empt a long grinding economic war between the USD zone and the rest :)

Geist 2y ago

Rubin may have a good proposal, I can't speak to the technical details but he claims it doesn't allow recursive covenants. The issue is, he went about it very poorly, he basically just asked one day "OK, so I'm gonna launch a UASF because I don't see any disagreements". Then, because everyone told him no he got mad and said "bitcoins ossified and we can't do anything!" He comes across as very narcissistic, and that's fine to a degree, people that smart are probably not the best people-persons, but he has to learn patience, let these ideas rattle around for a while and the best covenant proposal will win. We aren't making any progress by turning this into a game of political football.

I think covenants will unlock quite a bit of potential for us, and you can see a lot of the inflooencers starting to be more amenable to it even though they started as "fuck this I'm voting with my node". Bitcoin is not ossified, we literally just got full RBF and it looks like its picking up adoption, and its possibly going faster than existing service providers can adapt to, in fact there are services that simply will not be able to provide the same functionality because of it ie. 0conf layer 1 to layer 2 swaps. Completely lost in these discussions seem to be in what exactly the new transaction type would entail, and a game theoretic analysis of whether the " miners become custodians" argument is valid, and I'd love to have those discussions and learn for myself.

Parman - Activate OP_GFY now!! 2y ago

"good idea"

"Some" risks

The last paragraph about lightning is not a true statement

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BOL 2y ago

Lots of good debate that I've seen, but Corallo's comment that Stratum v2 is the actual urgent upgrade seems reasonable?

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I agree. I think reason drivechain is only controversial recently because of mining pool centralisation risk. I think Paul Sztorc said he will help fund stratum v2 development if anyones interested.

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BOL 2y ago

I'm not sure funding is the issue??

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BOL 2y ago

Also, Paul can't "tie " some commitment to Bip300 out of it

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BOL 2y ago

I mean , I guess he could try ...

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I dont know if there is an issue. Just pointing out even the bip300 author wants to help increase the decentralise mining pools.

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BOL 2y ago

Sure, can debate endlessly about this--even the drive chain VC funding

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BOL 2y ago

For example, 3 million USD could train a lot of next-gen bitcoin developers in places like El Sal at this point, arguably better spent money!

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yep $3 Million is literally nothing compared to most shitcoin defi and not projects on ETH lol. I think Stacks received over $150 million in 2021 from just VCs.

Nostr and Lightning folks apparently built these protocols with zero funding from VCs lol.

We could talk about how Saylor has way more influence over bitcoin than anyone else as he owns 1% of the bitcoins in existence and runs the bitcoin mining council which pushes the ESG narrative for big corporate miners who’s shareholders are blackrock.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

*nft projects

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BOL 2y ago

Crazy clown world

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BOL 2y ago

Crazy clown world

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BOL 2y ago

ESG is something that most everyone loves (but, in the end, can't agree on)

Consensus is hard :)

a5

🫥 2y ago

Do you think black rock wants to cause a hard fork?

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Considering blackrock is one of the kings of fiat. I bet they would like to keep that power but also maybe they are just hedging their bets.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Whats not true? Mathematically lightning doesnt scale to billions of its users. People are more likely to end having to trust their bitcoin with LSPs or custodian ln wallets. Already we seeing 95% of lightning users using a custodial wallet despite all the education to hold their own keys.

https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations/

falsefaucet 2y ago

Umm I'm an idiot. But LN didn't need taproot.

Taproot expanded some possibilities of LN. But LN woulda been fine without it.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

It needed segwit and taproot I believe was needed for bolt 11

falsefaucet 2y ago

I'd say needed is a strong word if your referring to bolt 11 functionality

falsefaucet 2y ago

And I think you mean bolt 12 invoices. And we are still waiting for them......

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I’m retarded but swear I read taproot was pushed bc helped with lightning network security or something.

falsefaucet 2y ago

I'm more retarded. I'm sure something in taproot made something easier for LN or more efficient. I was more so stuck on the word 'needed' insinuating it wouldn't work without taproot

🤝

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

No, it was supposed to lower #transaction #fees, and benefit some privacy..👎💀👹

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Well the privacy is still shit so didnt help at all with that. haha

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

TapRoot, not worth the trouble for #Bitcoin..👎

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

EXACTLY! And it's clearly looking like #TapRoot is more trouble than it's worth..🧡👑🗽

ภ๏รtг๏ภคยt 2y ago

“BTC can copy every useful technology, as soon as it is invented; scamcoins lose their justification and become obsolete; and the Bitcoin community can be pro-creativity, knowing that Layer1 is fully protected from harmful changes.”

We're gunna need to all sit in a nest and hash this out as a community....

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

That seems more sensible rather than use threats or create unnecessary division.

But I guess building consensus is similar to politics so there might always be polar opposite extremes as it’s human nature.

ภ๏รtг๏ภคยt 2y ago

I guess the way I see it is this;

(I haven't done really any deep reading on drivechains)

Allow it, to stress test bitcoin to see if bitcoin is the solution we all think it is or can become. Preferably let's stress test it before the dystopian future we all see coming, arrives...

Everyone, is starting to think bitcoin is the solution, for everything. Lol.

(It's the start of the S curve in my honest opinion...)

Now, what if each layer, solved a problem/s and we could only have 256 of these layers?

Layer 1 fixes global monetary policy

Layer 2 lightning fixes speed/scalability

Etc etc

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BOL 2y ago

How about Stratum v2 being more urgent?

It has been in the pipeline for a long time...

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

How about it? If it compromises #Bitcoin it can't be a part of Bitcoin..🧡👑🗽

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BOL 2y ago

https://stratumprotocol.org/

Rich Nost 2y ago

We already have sidechains, and nobody gives a shit about them. The idea that we could have all these noble scientists experimenting on one of only 256 sidechains slots is absurd. People don't create shitcoins, because they cant do it on bitcoin -- they shitcoin to scam people with a set of buzzwords surrounding an emergent technology. Nobody will care about sidechains, ESPECIALLY BITCOINERS (bc Sztorc would rather cram his dick down our throat tha be bothered to do what every other BIP advocate has done) and we opened up yet another attack surface in the process. FTS

Petroit 2y ago

My point exactly. Even if everything else would be alright, shitcoins would still shitcoin because they want to create money out of thin air. This wouldn't work for them that well on drivechains so they wouldn't use them.

Rich Nost 2y ago

So Sztorc's argument that drivechains will kill altcoins is TRANSPARENTLY false and pandering to maxis

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I guess it’s how you interpret to me he’s saying eradicate the need for altcoins.

Maxis say “just use bch if you want big blocks, just use Monero if you want privacy, just use eth if you want smart contracts and stablecoins”

Why not allow that optionality on btc layer 2 without the altcoin?

More people will be inclined to use btc on layers 2s instead of shitcoinery on other chains.

Petroit 2y ago

Part of his argument for sure.

Other argument is that we could create sidechain providing great privacy.

Issue with this arguments are two in my opinion:

1. We can achieve really great privacy on regular L2s and lightning as well. It just needs some time.

2. Due to small anonymity set on sidechain the privacy is highly questionable anyway.

So yeah, I don't see any argument sufficiently strong and urgent in my eyes. But what do I know, I'm just 80IQ pleb.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Don’t downplay yourself like that if you still in btc in a bear market you probably at least 120 IQ 😆

Petroit 2y ago

I just lost my keys on boating accident. That's why I didn't sell at 15k. 😇

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

The #Bitcoin #code will have to be cleaned up and lockdown. A lot of things will have to be stripped out and removed.

Like #inscriptions. Maybe #TapRoot. It's not clear it's worth the trouble for Bitcoin. Because frankly, that's all that matters. #Bitcoin..🤔💡👑

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61bb909b... 2y ago

Followed after reading this rant. Easier than typing it myself. :)

noKYC ⚡︎ 2y ago

#drivechain is an attack on #bitcoin, fork or shut up. This is my position.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

🤝 can we be friends though? Or am I now an outcast? 😂

noKYC ⚡︎ 2y ago

You have my respect. 🤝

nostr:nevent1qqsd46qmmcarzwdj6995z0ephgp57w7nrztqcgn7vgk6y4kvpc9m2kspzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsyg8xees4gvjm2nnfe9rcc3k0z2zwpylhjrn93d48p7wldmkjwh35gspsgqqqqsnsfdmqdd

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

👍🧡👑🗽

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

SegWit and Taproot had clear benefits to rank and file node operators. Both, for example, enable smaller transaction sizes to make better use of block space.

Drivechain does not offer clear benefits to rank and file node operators. Rather, it appeals to special interests. And to deliver to these interests, it grants new powers to miners.

If Drivechain proponents want node operators to adopt their new rules, the onus is on them to make a persuasive argument. What’s in it for me?

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

every argument for drivechain is for rank and file node operators.

Also, there are no rank and file node operators, this isn't an army, just individual users.

Your statement is absolutist. If even one node operator wants it your counter argument is invalid. If even one node operator wants it, a majority blocking it is called demoncracy. Making bitcoin democratic.

DEMOCRATIC MONEY IS FIAT MONEY.

Its the 99% forcing the 1% to against their will. Bip300 allows both worlds, it allows a "rank and file"(whatever that means,) node operator to do what they want, and you to continue not doing anything.

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

My argument is “what’s in it for me?”

SegWit and Taproot offered me clear benefits. How does Drivechain benefit me?

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Fuck you. I have things i want from drivechain, i run a node, why do you need to have some clear benefit but mine are not relevant ?

See how that works ?

(The fu is not serious, its to illustrate a point)

Drivechain allows us to never have tonhave arguments like this again. You don't argue with some neigboring family about what kind of ketchup they buy. DC keeps bitcoin bitcoin, and layer 2 whatever you want. Basic economics. Peace among nations

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

Drivechain needs node operators to enforce the rule change, otherwise it wouldn’t be a soft fork.

I’m a node operator. I want to know how it benefits me to perform this labor. So far, I have only heard arguments about how it benefits other people, your post being the most recent example.

bevo 2y ago

I’m a node operator. I can’t get my head around any of it. I have come to the conclusion not what’s in it for me but what’s in it for the space as a whole. Yet to understand the unintended consequences to go close to making a decision.

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BOL 2y ago

The so-called "large miners" can fork off if they want, according to the illustrious MrHodl , your incumbent node will probably never even notice (even though there may chain tip drama behind the scenes)

I guess you'll want to check in on what's happening when you need/want to make an on-chain transaction

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

Miners can certainly initiate their own Drivechain soft fork. The question is whether they can maintain it.

The instant that a majority of hash is not defending the escrow, it’ll drain to the defecting miners. In effect, the sidechain escrow acts as a bounty, begging miners to drop the fork and take it.

This is why Drivechain truly needs the support of node operators. Nodes must be willing to invalidate the escrow piracy attempts, otherwise miners are incentivized to defect.

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BOL 2y ago

Ah, thanks for outlining this scenario... So if most node operators don't upgrade their node to "version drive chain" than the bitcoin locked up in drivechains would likely get pillaged to the point that no one would risk locking up bitcoin in a drivechain?

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BOL 2y ago

And a URSF would be a preemptive way of node operators signalling that they wouldn't "drivechain" at this point?

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

Nodes can signal whatever they like, but it’s an unreliable metric. A malicious actor could spin up any number of zombie nodes to Sybil whatever signal they prefer.

This was a concern during the BIP148 UASF of 2017. Many nodes were announcing their intent to enforce the fork, but nobody knew how many of those nodes represented real people’s actual interests.

For this reason, the #UASF campaign on Twitter was an important additional signal showing support.

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BOL 2y ago

Thanks for this reminder!

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Nope, don't listen to this guy it fake info and he's pulling shit out of their ass.

Nice and Kind Vic 2y ago

yes

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

If node operators are not enforcing the fork, then it is in every miner’s immediate financial interest to assign to themselves the escrow coin. For this reason, I predict that the coin will be swept (cold, hard incentives).

One could make the argument that miners’ long term interests are better served by keeping the drivechain going (that is, by safeguarding the escrow). The question is whether miners (mining pools, specifically) believe that it is in sufficient quantity to ignore defector’s blocks.

Do miners have the collective will to keep each other’s hands out of the cookie jar?

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BOL 2y ago

Mining has proven to be a crazy, competitive industry, appreciate them, but in hindsight a lot of them will probably say:

Shoulda stayed humble and just stacked more sats

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

False

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Its like i'm talking to a brick wall.

Absolute dullard.

e1

BOL 2y ago

Peace has as much to do with orderliness than an absence of war... Not much orderly about this whole drivechain "proposal"

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Drivechain allows us to arrive at a balanced peace through the free market.

You llike rank and file, stay on main net. You never have to put money into a sidechain.

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

Where do you get the #fucking mistaken idea that what you think or want with respect to #Bitcoin matters..💀👹

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Where do you get the #fucking mistaken idea that what you think or want with respect to #Bitcoin matters..💀👹

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

Your interest aren't relevant because everything you're saying is probably a lie.

And if in fact you're running a node it's just to try and #fuck someone..💀

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

A privacy end-2-end encrypted sidechain would be 100x improvement for bitcoin privacy rather than having to worry about kyc or doing coinjoins.

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BOL 2y ago

"The state" is always gonna "state" though

I'm sure most HODLERS are on various government lists at this point...

Drivechain does not fix the digital panopticon that has been built

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

#Bullshit..💀

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

What’s bullshit?

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

It doesn't benefit us. That's the point. It's just a con game. They want to #fuck us and all of #Bitcoin up the #ass..💀

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Dumb dumb has no arguments, just swears.

Thinks he is right

RealJohnDoe 2y ago

The Virtuous #fullnode operators are the only special interest that matters..🧡👑🗽

twentyone 2y ago

Matt, according to your profile you have only been into #bitcoin since 2020. Not trying to be rude here but had you been around during block wars you may have a different stance. Making changes to bitcoin’s code is serious and risky. I question anyone who supports any change to the code for any reason other than that there is a serious security threat. My intuition tells me anyone supporting and/or pushing a change for #drivechains are doing so for personal incentives or agendas. People need to stop trying to mess with the code….

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

For me it’s scalability and privacy that bitcoin lacks.

To me I was always of the belief that these features would be added to bitcoin eventually at least that was a narrative by bitcoiners a few years ago.

When someone says btc should not change then I get the feeling. They are saying just use ETH or Monero instead. Btc layer twos should replace the need of these altcoins. I don’t like these the way these coins were created at all.

I agree what makes btc unique is the fact it’s difficult to change. But if we want bitcoin to scale to 8 billion users then we need to make small changes. Bip300 would be the last ever change needed to bitcoin to ossification imo.

This is just my opinion. Everyone has their own desires of what they want bitcoin to be. This is just my take.

twentyone 2y ago

I appreciate you responding. I’ve been in #bitcoin for quite a while and can tell you I’ve heard the same arguments you are making over and over again. Either you just haven’t spent enough time learning about bitcoin or you’re a shitcoiner at heart. May sound harsh but I have enough experience to recognize and smell inexperience and #shitcoin minded and irresponsibly risky incentives

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Call me a shitcoiner then. It’s ad hominem attack rather than actually addressing how btc scales. Beecause atm there really is no solution other than some CTV bip119 which was quickly rejected leading to a Jeremy Rubin rage quitting bitcoin lol.

LogicallyMinded 2y ago

Scaling doesn’t belong to the #Bitcoin maxis’ lexicon.

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nobody 2y ago

tell me you never went through the blocksize war without telling me you went through the blocksize war

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

This isn’t about a block size change to mainchain.

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nobody 2y ago

No it is not. It is about fundamentally changing miner game theory with urgency yet, ridiculously, WITH NO CLEAR JUSTIFICATION in the spec.

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nobody 2y ago

i believe you have been captured by narratives that DC presents GOOD UTILITY THINGS ONLY, and you really need to examine the people that are presenting it that way. The crypto industry is flailing around to justify its existence right now, and the only asset that the SEC says is unequivocally safe is bitcoin. Is it any surprise to you that everyone is now trying to cram every silicon valley shitcoin utility narrative into bitcoin? First ordinals. Now drivechains.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

A End-2-encrypted bitcoin sidechain seems very useful to me as way to be traceless from the state and onchain analytic companies. Privacy is true freedom rather than using public ledger for every single transaction.

But it looks like you have already made up your mind.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Apologies for autocorrect:

*end-2-end encrypted sidechain

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

There is no urgency or rushing.

Only draft BiPs have been presented will take time til final draft is approved. That’s the whole point of btc core review process to do the checks, code audits and balances it’s a time intensive process.

So don’t worry you will be hearing more about drivechain when the final drafts are complete later this year or next year 😆.

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nobody 2y ago

by all means, take your time 😂

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Lol

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