And voilร there we have the left/right divide on protocol level. Weird times we live in.
Discussion
I'm a lefty. Am I on the correct protocol or do I need to switch? Thanks.
You are a lefty? 
What distiguishes right from left among freedom advocates? ๐ค does the left still want free stuff or do they understand that structural theft/taxation is incompatible with freedom?
Lefty = bigger government
Right = smaller government
If you are a bitcoiner, doesnโt make any sense to advocate for bigger a government
Classical liberals were not in favor of bigger govt & I do know people today who consider themselves left anarchists. I think most of them are in some way confused about the scalability & vulnerability of personal relationships that do not set hard boudaries for poperty ownership. Many seem to incorrectly have some sense that "sharing" is an ideal that needs to be prioritized among other things.
I think itโs just that the rhetoric seems that way, but I know a *lot* of right wing big government people who spout all the empty rhetoric of small government and blah blah but support the most absurd, huge govt programs, wars, & all the rest.
No argument that All Politicians are criminals that are there to enrich themselves but Lefties will more likely to enslave you to get their way
Left-libertarians just havenโt dwelled on it long enough. If youโre of a libertarian bent and you do the deductive reasoning you are bound to end up on the right.
While I kind of feel that way too, I'm not so sure it's all that inevitable. I kinda wonder if it might have more to do with temperaments or something.
By no means is it inevitable, but say you could get a left-libertarian to read:
- Anatomy of the State
- Economics in one Lesson
- Road to Serfdom
Then I find it hard to believe they would not swing right after that.
The gap in my experience is they havenโt yet been disabused of statism/socialism nor embraced deductive reasoning. They may not go full ancap, but itโs impossible to unsee the destruction of the left (often by 2nd/3rd/etc order effects) when you see the construction from the right by enabling individuals through entrepreneurship.
I voted "right" and republican for nearly two decades. I had to go the other way after my views no longer aligned with MAGA, the poison that has ruined the republican party.
So you voted for Biden? ๐
Yes, the lesser of two turds. ๐ญ
You are so brainwashed. It is funny but kinda sad ๐
Okay my dude. I appreciate this thoughtful response.
If you think Biden is better than Trump in ANYTHING at this point, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind, my dude. So it is sad. ๐
Biden has been, and will continue to be, a disaster. The damage he has done will be with us for some time to come.
Trump is not the answer. Trump will do even more damage should the reins of power ever find themselves in his hands again. Trump is a wounded animal who will rage and roar without concern for the consequences.
From: fiatdenier<-Derek... at 07/08 10:31
> If you think Biden is better than Trump in ANYTHING at this point, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind, my dude. So it is sad. ๐
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That's the problem that we have. Hopefully neither of them are on the ticket next year.
I suspect you have some buyers' remorse at this point. Not that you regret the decision; but that you wish like Hell that a different choice had been offered.
I am personally skeptical about #[4]. Especially his conspiracy theories about Vax and Wifi etc. But he said some things I resonated with about free speech.
From: DerekRoss at 07/08 10:19
> Yes, the lesser of two turds. ๐ญ
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Vaccines have to have metals in them in order to stimulate an extreme immune response that a dead virus cannot stimulate itself. The metals have far worse long term effects than any threat from the diseases they supposedly prevent, especially in a modern age where hygene is no longer a major problem. Ear infections, eczema, asthma, & so many common childhood illnesses are a direct result of vaccine damage. The mRNA jabs are even worse because they literally program your own cells to produce damaging particles.
Eh. Maybe? Definitely not as much if I would have voted the other way. I would have voted for any candidate that wasn't Trump.
I will vote for neither Trump nor Biden. If that is the choice, I'll write in Derek Ross.
From: DerekRoss at 07/09 09:57
> Eh. Maybe? Definitely not as much if I would have voted the other way. I would have voted for any candidate that wasn't Trump.
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Subjective, il take Trump over Biden any day of the week.
Policy wise Trump is basically a 90s liberal. This is why I think the real divide is more about temperament. Trump is an ego maniac. Conservatives are mostly just kind of amused by that & certainly don't see it as a threat, but I think for some liberals his behavior strikes some sort of nerve related to something many of them are stuggling with internally. Like maybe a lot of liberals push narcissic impulses into their shadow & Trump is like the outward embodiment of a part of themselves that they secretely hate or don't want to admit is even there. The extreme reaction from many makes very little sense, especially given that they're willing to embrace an obvious pedophile (with a crackhead son who makes porn for his dad as proof) who openly brags about his mafia like behavior toward others.
๐ I like your comment, but don't forget that all politicians are shit, they are just thieves who want to live off our money and fortify the institution of thieves, the state.
Trump is a narcissist. He is much more interested in himself than in the country. I doubt he has any real political principles. I fear what might happen should he be nominated again. I really fear what might happen if he beats the odds and gets elected again.
From: AgoristView<-Dere... at 07/08 10:28
> Policy wise Trump is basically a 90s liberal. This is why I think the real divide is more about temperament. Trump is an ego maniac. Conservatives are mostly just kind of amused by that & certainly don't see it as a threat, but I think for some liberals his behavior strikes some sort of nerve related to something many of them are stuggling with internally. Like maybe a lot of liberals push narcissic impulses into their shadow & Trump is like the outward embodiment of a part of themselves that they secretely hate or don't want to admit is even there. The extreme reaction from many makes very little sense, especially given that they're willing to embrace an obvious pedophile (with a crackhead son who makes porn for his dad as proof) who openly brags about his mafia like behavior toward others.
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Trump is a 4d therapist
There are many things to both like, and dislike about the way Trump governed. There are few things to like about the man himself. Having voted for him twice, I'd like him to go away.
The MAGA mindset has certainly had an effect on the GOP. Some of that is profoundly negative (e.g. election denial). Some is very positive (e.g. the shift towards libertarianism). I suspect most of the negative parts will dissipate before the 2024 election season is in full swing.
From: DerekRoss at 07/08 09:54
> I voted "right" and republican for nearly two decades. I had to go the other way after my views no longer aligned with MAGA, the poison that has ruined the republican party.
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Same here. Trump was built to destroy the Republican Party, just like he did the independent party in 2000.
I did not vote for Biden tho ๐ณ
As someone who lived in the city where Trump built ugly monuments to himself, demanded the death penalty for teenagers who were later exonerated, and used his grifting skills to elevate his ego, I had a natural aversion to his personality. He also brought to the surface a great deal of hate and racism that had probably always been there but was disturbing to see nonetheless.
As a bitcoiner, I saw his policies as nothing more than an extension of the fiat system that he exploited for his entire career. His Treasury secretary (a Goldman-Sachs banker and hedge fund manager who made obscene amounts of money off of the 2008 financial crisis) tried to impose KYC requirements on self-custody wallets as one of his final acts in office.
You have TDS. โOrange man badโ all day everyday. ๐ Interesting that he was not called a racist until he decided to run for president.
No, he was, you probably just didnโt hear about it. And โTDSโ doesnโt actually exist.
Yeah? Give me an example of his racist views before he divided to run. Daily fake news, social media blackout, 2 impeachments, FBI raid and multiple lawsuits etc etc proves TDS exist. You just choose not to see it because you donโt like him. ๐
Iโm just going to post this because you seem too triggered to have a respectful discussion and Iโm not here for that. I can already anticipate your response and itโs just going to wreck my weekend vibe to continue. 
He hired a management company to run that apartment. Obviously you think he goes there to collect rent check monthly and personally refuse to rent to anyone black because thatโs what you were told. And you believed it 100%. ๐คท๐ปโโ๏ธ
BTW, I am not triggered at all, I find all this very funny. But I am not here to make you love him. To each his own. The end. ๐
And if you do some research you would find out those people rejected have very poor credit and no references, but it is just details. ๐
Including an article written by a uniparty shill doesnโt give you more credibility.
Your recent posts are the definition of TDS
TDS certainly exists. There are folks who react irrationally to Trump -- both positively and negatively. I would say that Trump's most loyal fworshipers have just as much TDS and those who salt the ground he trods upon.
From: daniel11<-DerekRoss at 07/08 13:01
> ...โTDSโ doesnโt actually exist.
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Based
Trump is not a racist. Trump is a Trumpist. Everything is completely and always about himself.
From: fiatdenier<-Derek... at 07/08 12:48
> You have TDS. โOrange man badโ all day everyday. ๐ Interesting that he was not called a racist until he decided to run for president.
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You mean the kids who likely beat and raped that women as just ONE of their crimes that evening?
Death penalty would have been too kind.
Lolololol
Lololol.
If MAGA goes against your views you were never republican to begin with.
Youโre simply a member of the uniparty.
It's important to separate the "Make America Great Again" meme from Trump.
I am all for the "America First" mindset, and think that focussing on American Greatness is essential for the world at large.
I am not at all interested in another term for Donald Trump. I'd like him to fade into the distance.
From: (ThisIsTheEnd) at 07/08 13:26
> Lololol.
>
> If MAGA goes against your views you were never republican to begin with.
>
> Youโre simply a member of the uniparty.
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Thatโs fine.
Trump may have been a Trojan horse anyway.
MAGA didn't ruin anything...
...because Dem and GOP were ALWAYS clowns. Trumpism isn't the disease, it's a symptom
It's not all about one issue though, at least not for me. I don't like big government or government spending and regulations. But I believe everyone has the right to do whatever they want with their body and marry whoever they want to marry.
From what youโre saying it doesnโt look like youโre lefty. The whole left/right divide is misleading. One either understands property rights or not. And those who understand know that everyone has the right to do whatever they want with their body and that the only thing government is good at is the violation of the property rights.
"everyone has the right to do whatever they want with their body "
Unless, perhaps, they have put another living being inside their body...
From: (leshik) at 07/08 10:58
> From what youโre saying it doesnโt look like youโre lefty. The whole left/right divide is misleading. One either understands property rights or not. And those who understand know that everyone has the right to do whatever they want with their body and that the only thing government is good at is the violation of the property rights.
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Bill Burr makes it quite easy to understandโฆ
Yeah me too Derek.
I have gay friends, one who is quite close, I DGAF. Heโs happy, his boyfriend is happy, I donโt have any desire to stop them living the lives they want to live. I care when people try to indoctrinate children about anything, for my life thatโs mostly been statism (under the banner of nationalism) but recently itโs this weird LGBTQIA+ stuff with the emphasis on TQIA+. Let kids be kids, what adults wanna do is up to them. Think those are easy lines to draw.
Used to be unthinkingly pro-choice. Nowadays honestly Iโm not sure and donโt have a firm opinion. Iโd be devastated if my girlfriend had an abortion, but I acknowledge I would be just as devastated if she was raped and had to carry it. The only answer for me is to keep the State out of ALL healthcare so there is no finger on the scale, let people decide what is right for them and their circumstances.
Right-libertarianism isnโt some binary, itโs more that economics is the focus and keeping governments away should be the priority. Let people be economically free and theyโll thrive, let the State dictate choices and they wonโt be.
Itโs the difference between the welfare state and being able to find a doctor to perform an abortion if needed. One system creates subjects, the other maybe has more friction but still allows individuals to make choices however awful they may be.
From: stacksatsio<-Dere... at 07/08 11:02
...
> Used to be unthinkingly pro-choice. Nowadays honestly Iโm not sure and donโt have a firm opinion.
> Iโd be devastated if my girlfriend had an abortion, but I acknowledge I would be just as devastated if
> she was raped and had to carry it. The only answer for me is to keep the State out of ALL healthcare so
> there is no finger on the scale, let people decide what is right for them and their circumstances.
The problem with that view is that we have not figured out when human rights are conferred upon an unborn child; and the state has a definite responsibility to protect those rights. It is absurd to suggest that those rights are conferred at the moment of birth since birth is not an instantaneous moment but a rather long process. Does it make sense to say that there are no rights prior to the chord cut but all rights exist thereafter?
Personally, I think ~16 weeks ought to be the cutoff. After that rights are assumed to be provisional and you should have to get several doctors, a judge, and both parents (if possible) involved in the decision to abridge those rights.
I'd put a second cutoff at ~25 weeks as a proxy for viability. Once "viable" rights are assumed to be fully conferred.
...
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Marriage is not a right. Or rather, state recognition of marriage is not a right. Everyone has the right to perform a marriage ritual, and live together in a state of matrimony. But the state has no obligation to recognize that.
For my money, the state should get out of the marriage business entirely instead of cramming their views down on everybody.
From: DerekRoss at 07/08 09:59
> It's not all about one issue though, at least not for me. I don't like big government or government spending and regulations. But I believe everyone has the right to do whatever they want with their body and marry whoever they want to marry.
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I have gone through Economics in One Lesson with people who lean left. Even that either seems to be just out of reach somehow or just doesn't quite connect. There is still like an elusive foundational assumption that seems to be a barrier. And IIRC there are a couple of chapters in that book that are not terribly relevant & just kind of confuse things.
I'm hoping Saif's new book (judging by the reaction of Tom Woods) might be a better starting point.
Anatomy of the State is in some ways better than Econ in One Lesson, pointing out that if "we are our govt" then the Jews committed suicide is pretty eye opening for many. But it's also like jumping right in to the deep end. Easy for someone to get a bit freaked out at the implications & run away from all of it, and/or just look for reasons to demonize Rothbard rather than engage. Discomfort is inevitable, but I think maybe there is a bit of a sweet spot...?
Mises & Hayek are just not very easy to read.
In my experience, Larken Rose has some extremely valuable points (e.g. you can't steal from your neighbor & you can't delegate a power you never had), but he isn't exactly the best or most entertaining writer. And I think a lot of what he says resonates more with conservatives. I have been meaning to spend more time on Michael Heumer's book, The Problem of Political Authority. I know from what I have read of that & from what I have heard him say in talks that he definitely has some arguments that tend to be good at making normies think. Unfortunately there probably won't ever be one book that works for everyone, but I think there is still tons of room for improvement in terms of presentation & distillation of ideas.
I'm one chapter in with Saifedean's new book. It's fantastic thus far.
Right-libertarians never had a single book like Commies had with Marx and I doubt they ever will. So long as governments exist youโre gonna have to overcome the statism which is indoctrinated in all from childhood and thatโs where โRoad to Serfdomโ and โAnatomy of the Stateโ ought come in together.
Weโre not talking normies here, specifically left-libertarians. Likely they disagree with drug policy and warmongering at a minimum, after Covid youโd hope they are even more sceptical of scientism which Rothbard foresaw and thoroughly dismantled in his essay whilst itโs hard to deny Hayekโs views on Socialism if you read his backstory and understand he wrote โRoad to Serfdomโ in the midst of Nazism which he had to escape (although the muddying of nazism as far right might see those dots not be connected).
Only once youโve disabused the statism can you paint the economics / deductive reasoning picture. Hazlitt may not be the best and hopefully Saifโs latest book can be the new go to for that (Iโve got it but havenโt started yet) but we canโt expect someone new to these ideas to sit down and consume Human Action either.
Marxism preys on emotions. You donโt have to think much reading Marx, it all sounds nice if you just donโt scratch the surface.
Anything from the opposite paradigm requires real logic and thought. It challenges so much of what one thinks they know so it takes time to digest.
Bitcoiners are gonna end up there by exposure though over time. Again, maybe not full ancap, but seeing these โright wingersโ constantly be right about an economy disintegrating is hard to ignore. Their Wโs will stack up and be a vortex drawing left-libertarians across as they see the State continue to fail with Keynesianism.
I agree thereโs a foundational barrier but I reckon thatโs as much Statism as anything else. โRight wingโ has become a slur, considering moving to that side is a big fucking gulp for many, difficult to embrace until one canโt unsee them being โrightโ.
Once I fully embraced anarchy, I no longer considered myself Right. Even among Right libertarians, I have noticed a tendency towards Nationalism, with a โsmall government to protect the bordersโ. And of course, the current Right is socialist with their admiration of the police and military.
Proudhon famously said โProperty is theftโ, but he also said โProperty is libertyโ, and I think Rothbard understood both of these assertions. To tell a Right leaning libertarian that they donโt have a valid claim to their 100 acres unless they are mixing that land with their labor would not go over too well ๐
And that is an important distinction, because the ownership of land is the ownership of resources, from which all other property is produced.
Agree. I'm more Socially left. Financially right. That said, I'd rather not choose one or two categories to put myself in.
Socially Iโm ok with other people giving away my money.
Fiscally Iโm not ok with people giving away my money.
๐คฆโโ๏ธ
You seem to have made both statements about finances when they shouldn't have been. Can you please form a different comeback?
Itโs always about finances.
I get called a voluntaryist or anarchist generally, but truthfully I hate any political label. I don't find value in the labels or division. Politicians and parties are shitcoins.
I am a human. I vote with my money, my time and voice. Those are only votes that actually have a meaningful impart. I live by 2 simple rules, don't hurt other people, and don't steal there shit. I merely expect the same form others, and in turn I leave them alone to live as they choose.
I'm quite happy to give my own money away to those whom I think need/deserve it. I am not at all sanquine about letting politicians buy votes with my money.
From: (ThisIsTheEnd) at 07/08 09:29
> Socially Iโm ok with other people giving away my money.
>
> Fiscally Iโm not ok with people giving away my money.
>
> ๐คฆโโ๏ธ
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I interpret this to mean that you are libertarian, not left. Social leftist would be AOC, someone who wants to cram down a whole new social morality on everyone. A libertarian simply says "I don't give a damn what you do so long as it doesn't affect me."
A social leftist would be very upset with the recent SCOTUS decisions. A libertarian would applaud them.
And then there's abortion... That's neither social left nor libertarian. Rather it's a battle over when a being qualifies for rights.
From: DerekRoss at 07/08 09:26
> Agree. I'm more Socially left. Financially right. That said, I'd rather not choose one or two categories to put myself in.
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Switch ๐
It seems to me that the left/right divide is between custodial servers and decentralized protocols. Lefties seem to like nanny corporations who protect them against mis/dis-information while righties seem to want an anything goes wild west protocol. I found it hysterical when all the lefties fled Twitter for Mastodon, leaving one custodian for another.
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That's the nail hitting the head.
Personally I thrive better here because I donโt have a thin skin and I am not expecting a corporate entity or government to protect my interests. Having a progressive mindset does not equate to the desire to live in a nerfed world, but I recognize I may be an edge case.
This points out the different ways that people use the term "progressive". It's a nice word isn't it? It connotes moving "forward", as though there was some kind of pre-ordained direction to social evolution. The truth, of course, is that the only pre-ordained direction of human culture is increased profit. All other changes in human culture are in service to that goal, always have been, and always will be.
In any case, and with respect, I infer your meaning to be that you are more libertarian than left. That you reasonate with the euphemistic memes of "choice" and "X rights are human rights" etc. But that you are not an AOC socialist who wants central control over the means of production and the flow of information.
From: daniel11<-DerekRoss at 07/08 16:50
> Personally I thrive better here because I donโt have a thin skin and I am not expecting a corporate entity or government to protect my interests. Having a progressive mindset does not equate to the desire to live in a nerfed world, but I recognize I may be an edge case.
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No. Open protocol means open to everyone ๐ซ
I don't agree with the left, but it doesn't mean I will not listen to what they have to say
Hereโs the cool thing about being a bitcoiner with any political leaning:
Nobody can fucking stop us.
They canโt shut us down.
There canโt censor us!
They canโt monetize our data!
I disagreed with nostr:npub18ams6ewn5aj2n3wt2qawzglx9mr4nzksxhvrdc4gzrecw7n5tvjqctp424 about his position on wearing a Pride shirt, but I still zapped him for what he believed in โก๏ธ
If everyone thinks the same, then life is boring and we would be living in an Orwellian dystopia.
Stay opinionated #plebchain ๐ซ๐๐ค
actually it was nostr:npub1yaul8k059377u9lsu67de7y637w4jtgeuwcmh5n7788l6xnlnrgs3tvjmf I zapped. But I still zap everyone regardless of beliefs ๐ซ๐