Nope, sorry. You don't get to tell women what they should find empowering. That's the whole point of the movement. They can find whatever they want empowering and you can go suck a dick. This post is disgusting and you should be ashamed.
Discussion
I can't speak for women but you can. Got it. You know my wife happens to be one of those things and she whole heartedly agrees with me. It's actually not even debatable that the feminism movement has only made women less happy and society more fragile and devoid of respect for human life as a result of the destruction of the nuclear family.
You can disagree but to say that the thought is disgusting only shows you can't argue on the actual merits.
I'm not sure taking the discussion any further with you will be at all fruitful with this attitude.
I apologize for my language and tone. If you want to have a discussion I can remain civil.
Neither of us can speak for women. The difference between my position and yours is I leave it up to them to decide while you have decided for them.
Believing that women's most important role in society is to have babies is antiquated and a symptom of a system where men hold all the power. Women in a homemaking role give up their autonomy and become reliant on the man, which opens them up to abuse. Some men are attracted to this dynamic because it gives them more leeway to take advantage of the power imbalance. This is not always the case. Sometimes this dynamic can work out great for both parties. I'm just saying it's ripe for abuse.
Society has evolved. Family is whatever a person wants it to be. To say that the nuclear family is the best and most important for society as if you are some moral authority is arrogance. Having children is not a great accomplishment, most people on the planet are capable of doing that. Likewise having children does not suddenly grant you some great wisdom and authority on the subject. I know this is going to be insulting and I'm sorry, but if your greatest accomplishment is that you creampied in a woman then I think you need to reevaluate your life.
The power dynamic between the sexes is changing. With 8 billion people on the planet procreation is not seen as such a vital thing to contribute to humanity. If women don't feel they have to have babies to contribute that gives them options for how they want to live their life, which gives them more power and men that want them to remain subservient don't like that.
I don't think I've decided anything for anyone. Ive only made an observation I believe to be true.
Do you think a woman that is raped and then can't get an abortion because it's been made illegal feels empowered? How about a teenager that gets pregnant and has to completely reorganize their life and future plans, do you think they feel empowered? Getting pregnant and having kids is I'm sure very empowering for those who choose it, but not all women want that and some don't get the choice.
Firstly, you are arguing on the fringes.
Secondly, why on earth would you kill a child for the sins of the father?
Third, teen pregnancies are by choice, just as every other pregnancy except rape. You consent to potentially making a baby when you consent to sex. It should go without saying that obviously if the mothers life would be at physical risk, then her life take priority over the child's and it is her choice to proceed at her own risk or terminate. This is obviously an awful choice for anyone to have to make. There is also the matter of age of consent. Again, the baby in question is not liable for his own creation. You cannot take it's life for the mistake of the parents engaging in sex or the grandparents who failed to inculcate values and education that prevent teen pregnancy.
I don't see how these have to do with womens empowerment. You are now argung for less responsibility for individual actions.
I'm pretty sure there is going to be a fundamental disagreement between us about what constitutes a child. I'm my opinion a small clump of cells is not yet a person and therefore there is nothing wrong with terminating it before it becomes a person. That is a better option than having a child that is unwanted or that the mother does not have the resources to properly care for.
I want to get back to your original post because otherwise we will be here all day going around in circles. You call empowering women virtue signaling. To me empowering women is about giving them choices.
I am reading between the lines of your posts and I think you are a misogynist. The arguments I am making are not about women, they are about you and your very narrow view of women's role in society. I don't think having children puts them in a subservient role, but I think you want them in a subservient role and forcing them to have children is a means to that end. If this were not the case you wouldn't be against empowering women to do what they want.
You make a blanket statement that having children is the most empowering thing a woman can do. You do not seem to think of them as individuals when you say this. Every woman is different and has her own wants and desires. Your experience is completely anecdotal yet you apply it to everyone.
You can respond if you want, but I'm done.
I have views about what mens role in society is too.
If a fetus is not a person, what is it? Can you define "person" in the argument?
I said clump of cells, not fetus. The fetal stage begins at 10 weeks. Women usually find out they are pregnant at 6 weeks. There's a 4 week window when I think abortion should be definitely be allowed. I'm not willing to debate this further.
Because you know what the truth is. The "clump of cells" is a developing human being. Or what most people would calla "person" by every definition of the word. There is no argument as to when life begins. The truth is that life begins at conception. All science agrees with that fact. It's not really up for debate.
I never said the cells weren't life or if I did that was a mistake. I said the cells are not a person.
I don't want to discuss it because I think we are going to have different definitions for things, as well as different moral beliefs. We are essentially going to be speaking different languages and it will be a waste of time.
It doesn't matter what stage of development it is in. It's alive and it has its own DNA from conception. It's another human being because it's certainly not any other race. So an alive individual human being is not a person. So what is? I'm asking you because that's the disagreement.
Let me just explain why I am pro-choice:
I don't think human life is all that sacred. By that I mean every potential person to be conceived shouldn't automatically have the right to be born. Especially if by giving that right to the embryo it strips the woman of her rights and autonomy.
That doesn't mean I lack empathy or don't care about human suffering. My pro choice stance is about preventing suffering by keeping unwanted children from ever existing. Every child deserves to be born into a loving family. Forcing a woman to have a child they may not want will likely rob that child of that opportunity.
It also forces the woman into a role she may not be ready for. Women should be able to decide when they have a child, both will be better off if the child is planned. Women can be sure they are at a point in life where they can provide the best future for the child if they have the option to abort if they get pregnant before they are ready. If they get pregnant unexpectedly they will be forced to adjust their whole life around the massive responsibility of caring for a child. They may have to give up their educational and career aspirations. They may settle for a partner that they normally would not have seen as worthy to have children with.
I could go on but I really don't want to. This whole topic is a minefield and I think it boils down to that some people think every human life is sacred and deserves a chance and I don't think that. Their beliefs are often rooted in religion and that's where all rational thought goes out the window. Are you religious? Because if so then we should switch over to talking about that because I think that's the mistaken belief that many bad beliefs stem from.
I disagree completely.
It's not women's most important role. It's people's most important role. If you want to argue against that be my guest. Without babies there are no human beings.
It's only the most important role for people who choose to do it. We don't all need to have babies. Humanity is not at any risk of dying out because some people choose not to.
I understand that. It's just that most people are happier with family. A life of solitude is not for the masses. This is clearly true for all of human history. I'm a libertarian. I'm not against what any individual decides what they want to do with their life. I do not care, I just wish society at large was in less despair so they should really explore this path first. I just have an opinion of the most likely path to happiness for the majority of people. There are obviously exclusions. There always is.
I'm sure more people do want to have children, but the current state of society makes that seem impossible. So of course people are depressed when they want children, but don't think they can properly care for them. We should (and as Bitcoiners we are) fighting for a more equitable world where those who do want children are able to follow through with that desire.
I agree
I have a problem with you keep saying "most women" and "most people". That's clearly your assumption cuz none of us know "most women" or "most people" in the world.
And again, it's not having babies or being in solitude. How about just a life partner? How about community? How about friends? How about other family members? Why having family only means having babies??
It doesn't but for most of human history it has.
Sorry I just have to address your points by each paragraph on a separate comment. The problem is your perspective. The reality is women do not give up their autonomy at all for having babies. I think most women with children will tell you the exact opposite.
well said. you're a good man #[6]
The problem is that you see child bearing as a subservient action. If anything is disgusting, it's your perspective on children and how precious they are. As per my original post, child bearing is the most empowering thing. I cannot fathom having the ability to create human beings. That's real power. If a woman feels like she can be empowered by working for "the man" killing her babies and chasing her career, then I feel sorry for them. They are working towards a goal that specifically strips them of autonomy.
It's not one or the other.
And what do you have to say about the many statistics that show women are by in large more depressed now than they have ever been. By your definition, they are also more empowered now than they have ever been. How do you square that circle?
The biggest messaging difference here is one is speaking from an ethnocentric viewpoint and one is a worldcentric viewpoint. Both are valid. One includes more women. Signed, a woman.
Sorry. Just trying to understand. Which view is more ethnocentric, what makes it centered around ethnicity, and what makes one view include more women than the other?
Ethnocentric would be more community, tribe, or group centric (not necessarily only ethnicity). Not a bad thing. Necessary for human continuation. The worldcentric view includes more women because some women aren't able to have children or don't want children because their own childhoods were so traumatic or they were raped 15 times as a teenager and hate men or etc. You're speaking from your own experience, which while valid, is limited because you're a man with a family you've created. Beautiful, but only about 50% of all humans experience. So please take that into consideration. Your wife's experience is not all women's experience. Not all men are as good and standup as you. Thanks for being a good one.
Thank you. And I partially agree but it used to be far more than 50% and I think it still is now but has declined with the feminist movement and since then overall happiness has seen the same decline. I believe they are correlated.
There are always exceptions as you point out but there is also just human nature. We're biologically engrained to make babies. That doesn't mean that's the best and only path to happiness.
Absolutely. Debase the currency, debase the foundation of society, debase the nuclear family. This is why we both bitcoin, I imagine.
Also since men are only 50% thats why I said that experience can only be 50% Max.
Oh yes, I was thinking in terms of 50% of women but I see what you are saying
Well, if you're going to the human nature point, then men are biologically engrained to spread their seeds far and wide, which counters to your belief in a satellite family.
Cant overlook this lol hereforth im gonna give all the dicks a pass bc its a genetic imperative to be one Jk
Well, not just men. It's a human thing, but it's an unpopular opinion and not the point I'm trying to make here.
Not in human being or other mammals. It's more beneficial for humans to be in monogamous relationships. This is true for a lot of the animal kingdom. We must care for young, they can't take care of them selves and societally we produce more productive humans in 2 parent homes.
💖💖💖
Also, thank you for applauding my commitment to my family but I do want to add we should be fostering a culture that holds all men accountable for children they create and the women they create them with. The level of single parent homes is astonishing and the primary reason for societal collapse to the point we're currently at.
Absolutely. When engaging strangers on the internet, I always look for the good bc otherwise im likely to dismiss their humanity and make them feel not worthy of breathing which in turn creates friction in our interactions.
You earned a follow, my friend.
Also, let it be know I never said or insinuating that child bearing was the only way for women to be empowered.
Just that it is empowering. You could argue it's not but I think you would be on the losing end of most women that have children.
In summery: You are arguing as if I said child birth is the only empowering action for every single woman that exists.
I did not and would not say this because it makes no sense and is obviously untrue.
You are the one with a perception that women are only empowered by being selfish.
You said "most" empowering while also claiming that empowering women is virtue signaling. Whatever you meant to say, you need to work on your messaging.