Yes that's easy to say, but suppose that boy now wants to change in the women's change room with your daughter, how do you feel about that? Just treat them as an individual and go with it?
Discussion
😂That was kind of my point. It’s not kind to treat someone as something they are not, nor according to a collective label, or the applied traits of another.
And yes, ofc you should protect your daughter and can be wary of any potential threat, without necessarily acting preeminently against it, thereby avoiding social and legal issues of acting as the aggressor.
Again, dealing with edge cases that I doubt 99.99% of the population deals with. You may hear about it on the ‘news’, but unlikely that you’re telling me a story from your personal experience.
With that said, I’d imagine there is some way to deal with it in a way that is kind to most folks. Personally I think if one has special needs/accommodations the school can try to come up with a creative solution. Like this particular person can change in the teachers restroom or an empty classroom or an empty office?
But I don’t think you and I (or politicians)have to solve this edge case for the country, probably should be handled by folks on the front line in a compassionate way. They already handle exceptions all the time, this isn’t beyond them.
It's rampant now with 25% of kids identifying as queer and/or gender non-conforming in middle school...
It should be an edge case but it's trendy now for young people and very common.
They even put litter boxes in some universities to accomodate people who identify as furries?
At the risk of sounding harsh here and I want to preface this by saying that I in no way mean to offend anyone…
What someone chooses to identify as, is their business. However, it is in no way anyone else’s responsibility to acknowledge or accommodate that.
If you have male genitalia you use the men’s room regardless of what you “feel” you identify as. Same goes for female genitalia.
I believe in personal rights. Like I should be able to identify as anything I want. I should be able to identify as an Apache helicopter if I choose to.
Suppose I look like a drop dead gorgeous woman but have male genitalia. Every time I go into a guys bathroom I get cat called, over and over and over. Should I get to go into the girls bathroom? Not my fault how I look.
I agree with your choice to have personal rights to identify with anything you want.
If you have male genitalia you use the men’s room.
In life we don’t often get to have our cake and eat it to, you choose to identify as a woman there are negatives that come with it. Such as being catcalled. Nothing in life is a panacea.
This creates a caste of people who will always be subjugated. ‘Deal with it’? Not for that. Why can’t there be a solution that works like having a single bathroom that anyone can use? Not hard to implement that.
I think that would be a good solution. A single bathroom open to anyone that they could use privately. And not difficult to implement. (Potentially)
The rub is it costs money. People hate spending money on things they don’t personally benefit from.
This is true. And in some cases, it may be impossible. Pretend you are a small business owner of a restaurant. You are limited in what you can do by budget and physical space. So requiring compliance to such a thing could have the unintended consequence of bankrupting small business owners unable to comply.
I’ve previously been an investor in a
Few nyc restaurants. And every table you can fit in a space you need to as margins are tight.
You have the weigh personal and property rights. For NYC restaurants maybe you need to make seats wheelchair accessible. Do you side with people with disabilities or small business owners?
Here’s the thing for me: I tend to side with those who are marginalized. I’ve been marginalized before. It’s lonely in that corner, things are stacked against you. I would side with the disabled people, and try to make rules about it fair but accepting.
These are not mutually exclusive. It’s better for both if the business is able to remain open, EVEN if I (the disabled) am not able to personally attend this specific instance. My friends and neighbors will have jobs, possibly me indirectly even, and takeout will still be available to me.
More importantly, incompatibility with the state-designed plastic solution doesn’t mean that there is no other solution pursued, innovated, and implemented, dare I say probably a better one.
Agreed. Finding that balance is tough, not one size fits all. Unfortunately there’s likely someone who experiences hardships no matter what the solution. To me it should be the non-marginalized group. But that’s just me.
Well every restaurant has to be ADA compliant or you won’t get a COA.
Personally, I’ve never felt the world owed me anything. And the harsh reality is, it doesn’t.
I have no problem with people choosing to be who they want to be. But requiring others to go along with it is a bridge too far imho.
What happens if others won’t let you chose who you want to be? You looking different is somehow ‘requiring’ others to go along with it? This is a friction point.
Never worry about the others. Live your life.
Much of who you are is determined by your biology and you don't get the choice though, right?
Nature/nurture is usually 50/50. Sex is biological and gender is socially constructed. That’s just the definition of those categories. Identity is a blend of both.
No, that’s kinda the point. Nobody can take your will from you. (see: Epictetus, etc. ancient Stoics)
You only control four things: opinion, pursuit, aversion, desire. “Or in a word… everything of your own doing.”
Whatever the external results (which might inform the use of all of the above) you still are who you choose to be.
That doesn’t mean anything goes: that means everything BUT that one thing can and will be taken from you, even if it SHOULD be, in some sense, respected by society.
Most places (at least in my localities and experience) especially local institutions like schools and churches, already have some individual restrooms available for families (diaper-changing) and the handicapped. Implicitly this would already be available for other unique situations,
are you saying they’re not superfluous enough, or that some whole-new fourth category should be made?
Personally I’m not. I think the existing ones you reference which are open to all should do the trick.
For one… Because as someone who has been “one of those people” for most of life, I’m telling you those kinds of solutions don’t work and tend to make things worse. I don’t wanna be called out, nor fit in arbitrarily. I want to make my own choices and live my own life. No matter the society or community or era of history, there’s always been a possibility of persecution* in response to my choices. Only I can make them, w the possibility of changing minds and worlds, but irregardless, keeping my wits and will about me and living virtuously.
I.e. Expect all hurt and blame from oneself. Be invincible.
For two… that’s impractical. For this specific issue, or all of the category, much less all within society.
Again, most people might be initially uncomfortable in the boys locker room.. you get over it, learn the way of things, what to avoid, where to go, etc.
If every one got a new private room for every possible discomfort, that’s all there would ever be, and that’d be a looooot of rooms.
You’re better off, and I mean that as genuinely as possible, working through this on your own and thereby being prepared for the multitude of similar issues you’ll encounter in society throughout your life.
I’m not saying there can/could never be such a thing, just that as earlier post mentioned, it’s more of a niche, local, unique solution as completely necessary. And that this is the wrong reason and context to implement an absolute solution.
The ‘work through it’ approach is good for some but there are many (many) who don’t have the ability to do that. It’s not that they can’t, it’s that they’ve got things systematically against them which is hard to fight against. There are many that need support in order to not be completely cast aside. This is why I tend to fight for the people who can’t fight for themselves. 45% of queer people have considered suicide at some point in their life. Everyone else it’s 9%. That’s _staggering_.
That’s a rather bizarre, almost realistically-inconceivable hypothetical, but while presuming it to be true, this is yet another (if basically all) societal problem that would be solved with a better principle of private property*, than some vague unreal sense of public-ownership.
Now if 👁 was in that scenario, I would probably do I what would and have in any other uncomfortable situation: either learn to bear it, and become a better person by it, or if necessary for practical or safety reasons, pursue the simplest alternative.
Changing in the women’s bathroom would DEEEEEFinitely not be that… in fact that’d be way more uncomfortable.
*(this is basically the point of private property. The results of your work doesn’t effect mine, your choices are separate from mine, and so on. Better incentives that way, better opportunity to avoid conflict.)
It’s a tough question and the rise of property rights has been more prevalent in modern times than personal rights used to be (civil rights/suffrage etc). Why can’t there be a single bathroom solution that anyone can use to help be a win win?
I remember hearing of the litter-box thing, and I’m 90% certain that was a troll video that was taken by many as real news. 😅😂 Beware the satire, it’s meant to make you more aware and slower to judgement, not to confuse you or cloud reality.
You said the word: trendy. And going against what is trendy means social cancelation in today's world — and nobody wants that.
I do believe this is a fair point for those in the public light, and some local social situations, but I’ve also seen its effects overestimated and applied to localities where its clearly irrelevant, and there is no trend or concern whatsoever.
Be wary to be the more reasonable party — not just in position but in manner as well.
Perhaps even, in approaching every individual interaction with humility, reasoning towards truth along with the your associates, you might not only avoid malevolent agitation, but even show them an inkling or glimpse of light, of reality that they’ve been starving for.
I can tell you for a fact this is a completely made up %, not even close. There have never been litter boxes in schools, also completely made up.
Agreed, have to say tho… I have completely lost track of who is responding to who in this thread.
Maybe we can use @Pubs?
or make a group chat in Session, if y’all wanna continue the conversation in more depth🤷♂️
Maybe it’s similar to how more ppl identify as homosexual now that it’s generally accepted in the US vs the number of ppl who may in a repressive society like Iran.
Perhaps these ppl always existed but needed to keep that part of themselves quiet to be accepted in society.
Or maybe not, and this is a brand new phenomenon and ppl just want to be trendy. Honestly, it doesn’t matter.
Live and let live.
My presumption is, and this seems to be backed by clinical evidence, well sexuality issues may be relatively common and questioned*, often a perverted response turns them into body dysmorphia. A young girl who otherwise would’ve simply been a tom boy or lesbian, now might suffer from body dysmorphia, surgery, hormone distortion etc.
That does seem to be legitimate issue to me, however inappropriate some of the responses might be.
Personal stories were requested, will return w details later. Preferably in a Session chat if possible.
*(altho these also should be questioned, and chosen; not pseudo-mystical “destiny” or necessity as the culture implies)
this!