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Dear Bitcoiners on #nostr,

For some, when you see or hear someone say they are a progressive/left bitcoiner, some of you lead to attacks, questioning and probing, assuming:

“pffft that’s not possible, how stupid can you be!”

I’ve been at this for over 3 years now. What you should do is take a step back, and realize how incredible it is that a progressive probably broke ranks heavily (think Liz Warren, greenpeace, woke police etc etc) to learn about and advocate for bitcoin. That’s really cool and a hard thing to do! Tribalism is deep and can produce awful things that get in the way of independent thought, truth, and progress.

Most progressives in bitcoin are not your caricature of the modern progressive that wants big government control, censorship, against free speech, MMT, etc etc. they’re bitcoiners that advocate for social change and progress, the true essence of the word, and believe there is a role Bitcoin can play in improving the lives of everyone, especially those downtrodden by society and the government. And those of us on the left in Bitcoin are socially liberal - we’re anti-war, pro lgbtqia+, pro women and freedom, and pro people gaining true financial freedom and prosperity.

Progressive bitcoiner does not equal democrat foot-soldier

Hell, most of us are politically homeless, as are you probably.

And at the end of the day these political labels can paint a bit of a picture but are inadequate at best, harmful at worst.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

#progressive #left #bitcoin

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Discussion

MrHodl 1y ago

This right here is the problem. You've been told a lie.

The Fockin’ Fury 1y ago

You literally just ignored his entire point and made a trite, bad-faith argument that amounts to “reeee I read on the internet that progressives don’t really want progress for *everyone*”

MrHodl 1y ago

No, I literally mean bitcoin isn't for everyone.

MrHodl 1y ago

IOUs, yes. Bitcoin, no.

TBH 1y ago

1. Let’s all agree on the most moral and effective form of money. (Bitcoin)

2. Let’s then debate how to tax and spend it.

Don’t jump to #2 first or we’ll never get past step 1.

a source familiar with the matter 1y ago

how do you determine which social change is progress and which is decay?

Trey Walsh 1y ago

Marketplace of ideas. Debate. Journalism. Philosophy. Principles of freedom. Consensus

a source familiar with the matter 1y ago

You sound like a liberal rather than a progressive

Deleted Account 1y ago

Nature says both are a constant. Right?

Sourcenode 1y ago

I understand where you're coming from because I also considered myself left/progressive when I entered bitcoin. I have heard nostr:nprofile1qqstm84k2lp9knmvmf5gw88zvfvar7duvfpqfplryfystdn55ug2gksprfmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68yurvv438xtnrdaksz9thwden5te0wahhgtnwdaehgu3wwpshyareqyg8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnhd9hx2j8uly5 and nostr:nprofile1qqsp4lsvwn3aw7zwh2f6tcl6249xa6cpj2x3yuu6azaysvncdqywxmgprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvq9n8wumn8ghj7enfd36x2u3wdehhxarj9emkjmn99ah8qatzx9e8gmr3vdsnsu3kv96hjcthx4hr26pnds6ngv3jv3kngumj0y6kg7nxv4jngd3exen8zefcwvm8zem4v34hxdmydf6xvuelvfex7ctyvdshxapaw3e82egpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejs5mzk3a say the same thing.

Emotionally I understand the desire for equality, justice, peace, and freedom; all of which are accounted for in libertarian theory without the use of government coersion.

It took me a lot of arguments, studying, and self reflection to realize that the majority of bitcoiners correctly associate leftism with communism and progressivism with socialism. Philosophically, politically, economically, and historically that is the case.

All of these terms are shadows on the cave wall, but the practical implications of adopting a particular political or philosophical theory does matter in my view.

If you want to continue using those terms to define yourself you'll likely continue to find resistance with bitcoiners until a fresh batch shows up in the next bull run.

We don't need to agree to work together for a better future, but any attempt to reconcile leftist ideology with bitcoin is cognitive dissonance in my experience.

Mad respect to your work and your journey. I'm grateful a majority of mine happened internally 😂

Deleted Account 1y ago

“We don't need to agree to work together for a better future, but any attempt to reconcile leftist ideology with bitcoin is cognitive dissonance in my experience. “

You know how those who support Trump typically buy all the hats & yard signs 🪧 & proclaim their support outwardly?

In my experience, most leftists & progressives have little need to proclaim to the world their beliefs. Bluntly: we don’t believe one person is a figurehead for all of us.

That said, it’s possible you may never see a “fresh batch” show up in large numbers. Many of us don’t need a “tribe” surrounding us. We are self sufficient & self-sovereign. 🫡🙏🫂

Deleted Account 1y ago

“Emotionally I understand the desire for equality, justice, peace, and freedom; all of which are accounted for in libertarian theory without the use of government coersion.”

Can you understand logically who built Bitcoin in the beginning? Genuinely. No sassy 💁🏻‍♀️ sauce.

Konstantine 1y ago

some good insights, it just falls apart at funding those progressive policies. Are there any progressive theories on how to fund these without taking what belongs to your neighbor? it seems implicit that these should be funded through govt theft. Happy to be corrected though.

Are the progressives that are dipping their toes into bitcoin are just at the top of the rabbithole of private property?

Deleted Account 1y ago

Progressives have been in Bitcoin since the beginning. Start there. 🫡

Jaakko Vazha-Kareli 1y ago

I agree that it's not a good idea to "ambush" newcomers, regardless of their political views.

I also don't think we should just overlook people proclaiming to be for everything that's good and holy while advocating for actions that historically have always led to the very opposite outcome.

Cognitive dissonance needs to be called out, hopefully without trying to embarrass the people suffering from it.

mbarulli 1y ago

I'll use this to address the criticism I receive for being both a Bitcoin supporter and a social liberal.

Thanks nostr:npub164q45vfa8prpl7f63stsl9qm9n22v6julkasjdqxjc8kevchsj0sp42rl3!

nostr:note1crdtnwvxwlajsfr6ve7pr55gget0ype3c86kce6f9vp4kdw4nyasu0m6fm

T$ 1y ago

Well said! Being a part of Nostr is such a “privilege.” I love hearing all the perspectives. Can’t help but have an instant connection with most ppl on Nostr. During an IRL meetup I rarely think much about politics bc most of us are down-to-earth with similar goals. The political ads on YouTube are miserable… cant wait to party and celebrate it being OVER #nostrvilleafterparty #politicallyhomeless

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

What is it with this pro lgbtqia+ crap? Why have we all got to be pro any of it. I’m straight with gay friends but i don’t have to be pro straight. I just get on with people . I’m so f’ing bored of this recent obsession with ‘gender’ BS. And no i don’t think ‘they’ is an option , it’s just over indulgence in people’s mental health issues. Anyway I’m not at all opinionated by the way 😂🤙… and i’m also not part of a tribe. I stack sats and talk to some fruitcakes on here that’s all

kidwarp 1y ago

There is only 2 genders fuck all the none sense

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

I don’t even care, just stop f’ing force feeding me all these agendas. It’s soft minded BS

kidwarp 1y ago

Agreed

JB 1y ago

truly

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

This isn’t an attack on them by the way, quite the reverse, i feel I’m under attack by this constant barrage of BS

Telluride 1y ago

My sexuality is my business and yours is yours. Recently had this exact debate with a friend of my sons who told me that “gay people should have rights” I just said what kind of rights? You mean “human rights”?

Yes. -Yes they should have those. Last I checked, they had them.

They don’t have the right to proclaim it to the world and expect me to celebrate it.

The whole thing is a word game for the mid-wits of the world.

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

Agreed. Word salad for the over indulged

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

My whole adult life none of this has ever been a problem until after 2020. I had someone, a nice girl, inform me her pronouns were he, she, they depending on how she felt. Mine are WTAF 😂

pietre 1y ago

Not everywhere dude, but I agree with you

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

That’s also true. My point was the pronoun BS and the agenda to promote crap to the easily led

Valentino Giudice 1y ago

> Last I checked, they had them.

This very strongly depend on where it is that you checked.

Telluride 1y ago

Human rights? Yes humans have them. I just checked again.

8ec3fd75... 1y ago

We were brainwashed to believe LGBTQ people are some crazy rainbow haired fetishists or whatever. These exist, but are the very tiny loud minority and they dont represent the rest. You don't have to like them.

The vast majority are just normal people, you wouldn't even know that they're lgbtq. This is who we support. It isn't up to anyone to decide on who people can marry or what people want to identify as. Just accept them and move on. It's really not hard, especially if you are libertarian

BitcoinSandy 1y ago

100% agree, and is what i said

H 1y ago

idgi, there are plenty of left libertarians in btc and you've definitely been here long enough that you would have noticed some of them posting if you were looking

DonkHODL🗿🌽🦨 1y ago

Why do progs libs and queers need an “exvangelist” to evangelize for them?

Ruthie 1y ago

"Politically homeless" is how I have been my whole life. Great term to describe those of us who never quite fit in anywhere!

AU9913 1y ago

You say pro-lgbt where do you stand on transing the kids? Does the + include pedos? Cuz those are pretty hard lines to cross regardless of anything else we agree on

nicnym 1y ago

they never answer this question.

AncapAnon - Activate OP_GFY now! 1y ago

Sincere question for progressive bitcoiners: if you could press a button that would end all fiat central banks immediately, would you press it no matter what? What if that caused an increase in inequality? What if all federal social programs would get defunded? What if taxation as we know it now would be impossible? Because if you would, then you are not a progressive anymore.

Trey Walsh 1y ago

I am probably still progressive(ish) because I’m concerned if we press a button like that it’ll be catastrophic for millions of Americans.

The pure libertarian argument for the vulnerable in society isn’t a good enough answer for me in 2024, without government supported intervention that is

Over a longer time frame, sure, but what does that look like? We’ll see, I’m open.

AncapAnon - Activate OP_GFY now! 1y ago

Fair enough and thanks for the response. But then I have to ask - what is the ultimate goal for progressive bitcoiners? I’m here for separation of money and state and I see that inevitably leading to outcomes progressives would not be happy with.

Trey Walsh 1y ago

Separate money from the state and see humanity flourish. Same goals.

The state may or may not play a role. Personally IDGAF, but I care that humans have what they need to thrive and be free.

I align more with left libertarian/libertarian socialism in that regard.

Dresden6 1y ago

why is the ability for a government to help people always associated with money printing? cities in the US used to pride themselves on the large beautiful institutions they would build for the mentally challenged before the prison industrial complex took over that role. these facilities were made on a harder money standard. money is used to express the values of the holder and just because we are currently told that is must be printed to help people doesn't mean its true. helping people is a choice regardless of the hardness of the money.

Chad Lupkes 1y ago

What I want to see are governance systems that manage our physical, legal, social and financial infrastructure in ways that are responsive, representative and responsible. The current "governments" on Earth have been failing miserably in those goals for hundreds of years, so if we could wipe them all away and replace them with systems that actually do the job we hire/elect them to do, that would be a step forward.

Chad Lupkes 1y ago

With a 20lb sledge hammer, multiple times.

Yes, it would cause short term inequality to spike, and it would cause hurt to a lot of people while the world adjusted to the new paradigm. It would be worth it.

Whether federal social programs got defunded would be a choice, and I would advocate that they not be ended, but that's just my voice. Taxation would not be impossible, people would just have a clearer understanding of where the money comes from and where the money is going. I personally don't have an objection to sending money to help "those people over there", as long as I know that those people actually need the help.

I don't think you are using the same definition of 'progressive' that I use. I don't know what definition you are using, because a balanced budget and transparent global financial systems that ensure that capital flows towards good causes and wealth/power doesn't get concentrated in fewer and fewer hands has been the entire purpose behind the progressive movement going back to the Magna Carta in 1215.

AncapAnon - Activate OP_GFY now! 1y ago

I’m using “progressive” in the history-of-political-thought sense, referring to the movement that began self-identifying as Progressives in the US at the end of the nineteenth century. See https://mises.org/library/book/progressive-era

Chad Lupkes 1y ago

So you're using a definition of Progressive written and perfected by people who self-identify has hating so called progressives? How is that supposed to bring you closer to an understanding of our perspective? All it does is drive a wedge between you and the people you are talking to. Just from what I can see in the link text without clicking on the article, I can see that the author has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Institutionalized racism? Totally against what progressives stand for.

If you want to understand something, don't come at it from the perspective of someone against that something. It really doesn't help.

AncapAnon - Activate OP_GFY now! 1y ago

No. I’m talking specifically about a group of people who called themselves Progressives and started the Progressive Movement. The most well-known and prominent of this first wave were Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

Chad Lupkes 1y ago

Ok, but Progressives and Conservatives are English words that are entirely subjective. Teddy was a progressive for his time, I'll give him that. But the progressive movement that he identified with was MUCH older than he was, and he simply grabbed the flag and moved to the head of the march, he didn't actually start it. When he was a 7 year old boy in 1865 looking out his window in New York as the coffin of Abraham Lincoln rolled by, the Progressive Movement was already strong. Just because history books identify the "Progressive Era" as starting in 1901 doesn't mean that the Progressive Movement isn't older than that. It's much older than that. The American Revolution itself was a Progressive rebellion.

And Wilson was the nominee of the Democratic Party, not the Progressive Party. He had some progressive policies in his platform, but he was being led by progressives in Congress more than anything else, something that is forgotten today by too many.

The natural tendency of capitalism is to concentrate wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands. The effort to reverse that trend and distribute wealth and power into more and more hands is at the core of the Progressive Movement, and the struggle between the two forces has existed for as long as money has been in existence.

AncapAnon - Activate OP_GFY now! 1y ago

Subjective indeed. You sound more like a commie with your comments on wealth distribution and the struggle against capitalism.

Chad Lupkes 1y ago

That kind of attitude makes it very difficult to have a reasonable conversation. The world is not black and white.

If you're not interested in reasonable conversation about the issues, I'll just move on.

Brisket 1y ago

As soon as you give something or someone a label, some of their magic is hidden from you.

I guess it's one of the hardest of judgements to avoid. Can you ever really stop your mind from labelling everything?

The Truth points to there being no Other.

♥️💚🧡

nostr:nevent1qqsvpk4ehxr807egy3axvlq362yyv4hjqucuratvvayjkq6mxh2ejwcpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0wd68ytnsw43z7q3q64q45vfa8prpl7f63stsl9qm9n22v6julkasjdqxjc8kevchsj0sxpqqqqqqzwsu5vu

Bryan 1y ago

TBH, most of us could care less. Not even sure what it means to be “on the left (or right)” at this point.

Trey Walsh 1y ago

Fair!

And I guess me neither in many ways depending on who you ask. I’ve been kicked out of all the camps 🤷🏼‍♂️

Louferlou 1y ago

But every libertarian Bitcoiner is also pro "all of that you mentioned".

We are just anti government propaganda regarding these "issues".

The problem is that the more progressive Bitcoiners are more pro government or less anti government than the more liberal (in the good sense)

This means that these Bitcoiners will initiate violence sooner or later against us to promote their point of view and come for 'our property. This is just what being progressive means.

So pardon to be cautious toward this kind of lefty minded people