Sorry but I’m not buying the Primal outrage. Either you are ok with their trending feed (an algorithm you DON’T control by definition that is going to include whatever filtering they see fit) or you aren’t ok with it and choose not to use it.
If you want to use nostr without algos like you claim you do, you are absolutely unaffected by any of this.
Maybe read some more into it. selective and manual shadow banning of users or content has nothing to do with spam filters or content filters.
I’m well educated on the topic. When did I say anything about spam? I’m talking specifically about the “shadow banning” on Primal’s trending feed.
Agree. This diversity in clients (with/without) filters is a feature and not censorship. They clearly understand they are not deleting posts. They are attempting to add value.
Eventually I want a child friendly version (with filters) where my kids won't see porn etc.
Just my opinion.
Exactly. After all, Primal runs on a centralized (though open source) cache service so if you are a nostr purest who demands their content come untouched from several relays, it’s not the client for you anyway.
Ralf is shadowbanned from trending because Semisol manipulated his note. Doesn't seem correct.
It’s not really about correct or not though, thats my point. Their trending feed is their own “algo” that has nothing to do with nostr. They can manipulate it however they want without our permission.
Either you are ok with using algorithmic feeds (behind a centralized cache) that someone else makes or you aren’t. If you don’t like some of their filtering choices, use a different algorithm or better yet don’t use one at all.
Why should we be outraged?
I understand that they're allowed to do whatever they want with their client. We should also be allowed question any aspect of it. If they don't take our feedback into consideration then we can fork it or use a different client. I see this as all part of the feedback loop to build a better client.
I’m not saying you can’t question it or voice an opinion at all! I’m just surprised at the outrage. Couldn’t you just use the chronological feed instead of the trending one in Primal as it exists today? My understanding was this was all about their “Trending” view, is that not the case?
Yes, this is about the trending view.
Go explain further please professor x this is interesting
Obviously, once Apple manipulates Nostr, it will be harder to fight against it.
He wasn't shadow banned by algorithms.
I don’t think it’s outrage. It’s just that joining nostr community many of us believed they finally got rid of all the garbage that comes from and is caused by silly trends, followers count, censorship and control. It’s not outrage, it’s plain and simple frustration.
That said, you are right. Primal is just one of the many means we have to navigate our notes and its destiny is in the hands of the community. Good luck to the devs.
I feel you. Unfortunately, I think there is lots of hypocrisy. A lot of the “no algos ever” people actually love(d) Primal and their Trending feed.
The truth is everyone wants a perfect world. No censorship but no annoying spam (or people saying mean things to me), decentralization but fast performance, no follower counts but also follower counts.
I think it’s a lot more nuanced than the average user is willing to admit.
Give the user option to turn it off. Solved
But the user already has that option! It’s a separate feed they have to select. Just don’t use Primal’s “Trending” feed if you don’t like it.
I am talking about spam and shadowbanning.
The shadow banning is only on the Trending feed, so just don’t use it.
Spam is a separate issue since Primal uses a centralized cache. I presume they need to filter spam on ingest to keep their cache fast and scalable so there is not way to turn that part off. You’d need to use a different client without a centralized cache or run your own caching service.
But why ban it in the first place? If it is trending, let it be, why fuck with it?
Theres a few reasons! You can read some of the posts from nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr explaining their reasoning.
Main ones were:
1. Adult accounts (they don’t want those in the trending feed, understandable whether you agree or not)
2. Semisol was creating “fake” trending events by creating fake reactions/replies/zaps/etc so they blocked his npub.
Again, if you’re trying to build a functional “trending notes” view, these are reasonable steps to take not “censorship”.
If there are adult contents you don’t want to see, mute it and refresh the list, why ban it altogether? What if I am a pervert and I want to see it? Let the user decide. Period.
🤝
Exactly
how do we know we're getting the real Nostr?
Good question. I think the “real nostr” is probably different for everyone. Largely comes down to what client you use and what relays you select.
Most of the most popular clients (Damus, Amethyst, Snort, Coracle, Iris, etc) read directly from relays (no intermediate cache service). This is the most “pure” nostr experience.
A lot of people are struggling with the concept of 'freedom' today.
Nostr was created and functions to be a maximally 'free' protocol. Where users could choose which relays and clients to build and use. Etc. It doesn't mean free of what YOU don't like. It means highly customizable and censorship resistant from big powers.
Anyone saying *their opinion of what a nostr tool should be or not be is missing the whole point. Don't like it? Don't use it.
#Freedom #Libertad
Primal is a foil for revealed preference.
This is why I try and use clients that give me a "raw" feed as much as possible. I swapped to onyx when Vitor dident have an off switch for his agressive form of filtering. And I dident like my feed in primal so i simply dont use it.
Also side note im glad your relay bot send reminders to reup 🫡 thank you!
Thanks for your support 🍷
I don’t know what primal is 🤣
I’m on nostr and still have instagram for social and selling purposes.
The rest of the “social networks” are not social and not networks at all. All hate and centralized shit
Tried primal before, feels like a soft cushion for platformers to soften the fall.
Not using it is the answer, mostly cause it feels like stepping into someone else's dank cellar.
The issue for me is informed by past experience, and past experience is of nameless devs influencing what I see and don't see in my feed based on THEIR agenda and what THEY think is best for me.
In other words, Statist, paternalist, head-patting on the part of people who think I'm stupid and need to be told what to do.
The actual motivations of the parties involved in Primalgate are irrelevant in the face of past experience, which cannot be overcome by words and promises.
In short, I don't trust ANYBODY's words.
Show, don't tell.
