Someone asked me about my follower count on primal so I looked and it is higher than I expected but I said that I didn’t believe that number.
What’s the deal with that?
Discussion
Is it bot followers or what’s going on there? It makes me a little uncomfortable because I don’t like inflated follower counts. I’d rather have two real followers than 2 million bots. I’m not even really trying to get followers here. I like the current group and size. I just like chatting with real humans.
I don’t trust it at all. It’s either broken or it’s intentionally put like that to make people feel better about their stats. It is probably broken though. Will from damus talked about the follower count being really hard to determine because it’s not data that relays work well with.
Could be only rumor but i heard older acclunts were featured when primal went live. Newer members were shown them as pick a few accounts to follow.
Or im completely wrong. Beem wrong before be wrong again
This site makes more sense. https://npub.world/npub1yye4qu6qrgcsejghnl36wl5kvecsel0kxr0ass8ewtqc8gjykxkssdhmd0
Follower counts are a shitcoin. Apparently it's different everywhere. Holdover from legacy socials 🤷♀️
Just scream in to the void and hope someone sees it!
😂😂😂
I've wish Nostr had different metrics, something new for a new protocol. Followers is something borrowed from legacy social media. It makes it like a game to build that number higher.
How about stats that focus on interaction and building community?
Other npubs conversed with per week/month, or comment reprocity % - am I active in the community, actually conversing with people, or just posting notes and not interacting?
Number of mutual follows - am I just collecting follows? Or am I engaging with people and building connections?
Post vs comment ratio - am I just posting notes, or am I also getting involved with other people?
Good points.
This!
Zap count lol, it's all borrowed to a certain degree, but total zaps would be interesting.
Zaps are amazing for easily transferring value, but I'm not sure what they are a good signal for.
People looking to achieve high follower counts with little effort can do zap4follow scams, basically buying followers, and giving them a large amount zapped. Anyone can make multiple npubs and round robin zaps to up their numbers. It's easy to game the system.
What could one learn from this information? How could this stat be used to indicate community involvement?
I mean one could argue that zaps are the entirety of the community involvement, I don't like to argue though. I guess just thought it would be cool! What's the point fo follows, replies, and everything else that makes this a social platform(protocol) it's all borrowed and inspired from something. Maybe Node runners could get special banners to show their dedication to the community 😎
I didn't want to argue either, just wondering your viewpoint about how amount of zaps could inspire community involvement, how they could be a new signal for that. My inspiration for this note is to gamify people finding into finding & building community & connections, rather than building a big follower count 👍
I think it is already well used, with bots dedicated to showing big zaps, sites that show zap totals & amounts like nostr.build & zaplife.lol and zaps being shown on notes and comments. If you have new ideas it would be great to share them though!
How about zap to like ratio
I'm not sure what that ratio would show me. What do you think this reaction would indicate, and how would it be useful?
I don't subscribe to the onlyzaps meme. I use a client that has reactions, and I find them a useful communication sub-channel. They let me gauge reaction to a note or comment. On most social media a large percentage of people don't post much, be it notes or comments, and reactions are a frictionless way for them to express sentiment. I also didn't think every comment I make is worth money, but would like to know what people think.
Why like when you could 1 sat zap? Likes just remind me too much of Facebook and twitter. Beta fiat coded. If you’re here now you should be embracing V4V. We are the ones who must manifest a new world
Like I said, my client doesn't have likes, it has reactions, which can infinitely personalized, and used to transmit information. I don't think every human interaction needs to be monitized by zaps. I don't flip a nickel at my IRL friends for every comment.
Yea it’s an aesthetic preference I suppose. Exchanging a token of scarcity as a positive response to an online interaction makes it feel more real, more meaningful. No need for that IRL but in cyberspace seems like a useful anchor
In the real world sometimes I respond to a comment with a nod, a wry smile, or a frown. Reactions are an online replacement for that. It's why emoticons were invented at the dawn of text based communication, and adopted for use in the digital age.
Also, a lot of people on social media are lurkers, some estimate as high as 90%. Reactions provide a frictionless way for them to interact & respond if they don't want to comment, or send me money for a comment or post.
I'm not against zaps, and as someone who often creates his own content to post on Nostr I find them valuable. But I also realize money isn't the only thing that matters. Knowing that I made someone laugh, or feel emotion, or that they disagree with me is valuable too.
I think onlyzaps is short-sighted, and overlooks the value in a sub channel of communication that has existed on the Internet since it's very beginning.
This is an excellent idea!
If legacy social media gamified the worst parts of human nature to maximize screen time and seek ads, why can't Nostr do the same with the best parts and encourage community, communication, and connection?
Is SourceCred available for Nostr??
valuerank=sum(zaps)*#harts*#comments*#follows*#reshares
all with adjustable weights by individual nostr users to their liking
Nice, very nice
Hi ryan 🤟😉🏴☠️ Absolutely. Followers are a shallow metric that doesn’t reflect true engagement or community-building. The metrics you’re suggesting would bring real value, focusing on quality over quantity. It’s not about collecting followers, it’s about creating meaningful interactions and fostering connections. Community isn’t built on passive consumption it’s built on dialogue and mutual engagement. The post-to-comment ratio is a perfect example it’s not just about broadcasting, it’s about participating. These new metrics could redefine what success looks like on Nostr, and move away from the vanity of legacy social media. Let’s prioritize depth over numbers.
Focus on real connections, not just numbers. 👍
That's the point. I think I understand that fully 🤙
Definitely valid points. I've complained many times about the people who just post and bail , even when there are thoughtful responses...
That said, it would all be based on the type of npub. Like, I follow some npubs that are like apps, podcasts, or other content like news etc. In those cases, I wouldn't want to discriminate against ratios because I don't expect interaction back.
I guess it becomes a UX problem at that point, and would depend how the client categorises different types of npubs/shows the appropriate metrics so people can determine quality follows based on the content type.
👋
Ooh I like mutual follows
I wanna see the grifter ratios: zaps in vs out (both frequency and quantity)
Amounts & number of zaps are available on nostr.build, primal & Nostrudel already. But is that a good metric?
Are people who create content supposed to zap it all back, or do they deserve the zaps they get?
Do zap4follow scammers benefit the community, as would be indicated by a high amount of zaps out?
Are people who zap anonymously scammers?
Plus it's trivial easy to make multiple npubs and zap back and forth to game the numbers.
Going by this measure alone I might be considered a grifter, with 1.5M sats received and 400k sent. I have also been here for 2 years, making original content, helping other users, and funding projects like nostr.build that aren't reflected in these stats.
Yeah definitely none of these measures should be used in isolation
It’s helpful in context with other metrics.
Yes creators deserve to keep their share.
Zaps actually solve a problem. Because on Nostr and other twitter-like social media platforms, likes and following are not of much value since very easy to fake.
Accounts of recognized people following you are valuable. But those are scarse and most, even very relevant users, will never be followed my an account of real Musk or Trump - or whoever else's of less then 100 who average reader would recognize.
Long and Thouhtful replies are kind of representative of how relative one is, but those are still free of charge and most of replies are short, dumb and meaningless - easy enough to fake with bots.
The cool part about nostr's zaps, is that it is a monetary representation of how grateful people are for your post. Which means, in practice, that, unlike faking your follower count or amount of likes, zaps are actually representive of how useful you are to the readers. because it costs.
Creating multiple empty accounts to like a post is quick and easy. Add linking your lightning wallet to all those - much harder. More time consuming and is not free (of charge) because using lightning and bitcoin in general costs fees. Can't zap back and forth forever.
zap4follow would be "pay4follow" on instagram twitter or mastodon.
Which would be hidden from the public. But because zapping is so convinient on Nostr, it is common to zap4follow - which, at least, is revealed to the public.
Seems you are auto-followed in primal. So anyone who creates an account via primal, even if they only use it once, follows you.
That seems like something that a user should have a choice over. Can you remove yourself from that list if you want?
I don't know. I just created an npub to see the flow then tossed it. I stay away from primal for multiple reasons and would never recommend onboarding through them. It feels like it was created by people who don't actually use nostr daily.
What client would you recommend for onboarding?
Good question. The people I have onboarded have been through Amethyst or Damus. I am very hands on, though, so I don't know of a good hands-off approach. Like, here is a client and a guide/onboard flow, go for it...don't know what I would recommend there. I know this is what primal is trying to accomplish, and I appreciate their effort. It is hard to get right.
I feel the same, I try a new npub on it occasionally and I'm not a fan of primal.
I was saying though that you should be asked if you want to be on that initial follow list, or at least have an option to remove yourself. I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of fake followers who just added me because I was on a list. Very inorganic.
Oh yeah, I agree with you about that. Beyond that, I think this method of onboarding actually hinders nostr's growth.
You're on the "recommended follows" list from Primal, that they use when onboarding new nostr:npubs (which aren't necessarily humans). If there are a lot of people onboarding, but not staying or mostly lurking, you end up with a sky-high follower list, but only marginally-higher interactions than someone unrecommended, like me.
What you have is visibility. Only the "regulars" can usually see my stuff and it can take newbies weeks or months, to stumble upon one of my notes.
it's an awful onboarding flow
what they should be doing is something more like, show you global, and prompt you to follow ones you like, and then build out recommendations after that
hm
i'm literally working on a recommendation engine right now, and i know the data system very well, have also written a nostr spider for gathering this kind of info
a kind 1 client with a really good onboarding flow would dominate pretty fast i think, because it retains users
i wish i could persuade my boss to start a project like this, it's just, i don't think the people he fundseeks from would be interested
Invites to Communities / Groups will dominate.
And the mEtRiCs might not even notice :winkwithtongue:
i still think that this recommendation engine idea i have will be a killer feature for nostr user retention though... and it can be a service that apps call in the first week or so to get recommendations to populate a recommendation list that discreetly is available to users to click and open
i get it why my boss thinks this is a proper value add for social networks, when i think through my own onboarding experience
it's really not hard to build this out either, although it needs a hefty database that spiders the network and filters it for a compact representation of the data (replies, reposts, quotes, follows, mutes)
well, the idea is in the air, anyway
nostr:npub1syjmjy0dp62dhccq3g97fr87tngvpvzey08llyt6ul58m2zqpzps9wf6wl has been implementing my idea of a service that does reverse proxy for you to expose your personal relay to the network, enabling full decentralized outbox, maybe someone else will build this...
we really need some competent front end devs in this team
Hmm. Best one I know is @Nusa. 🤔
Nusa, do you think a recommendation engine like that would be useful for publications? Like, click your ten favorite publications and we suggest ten more? That sort of thing?
of course nerds are always great recommenders lol, especially the collector type
ohhh nostr:npub1636uujeewag8zv8593lcvdrwlymgqre6uax4anuq3y5qehqey05sl8qpl4 is a front end dev? hmmmm i could think of a few small tasks that could be nice to have done
I’ve been thinking about this, yes. Have a couple of my own ideas percolating. I also have a demo selective crawler set up to pick from and have some plans to give people previews and selections, essentially saving them from endless test articles.
it's an interesting idea, like nostr:npub1l5sga6xg72phsz5422ykujprejwud075ggrr3z2hwyrfgr7eylqstegx9z has been talking about with improving upon web of trust to count engagement data as well, and then you can add on top full text indexes and machine learning text graph analysis
and then also stuff like noticing idle follows, or follows that a user never engages with
nostr:npub176p7sup477k5738qhxx0hk2n0cty2k5je5uvalzvkvwmw4tltmeqw7vgup has been doing some work in this direction also
I liked the idea of essentially running a spam filter backward. Instead of marking things 💩, you 🌟 things, and it adjusts your filter.
Kind of like nostr:npub1utx00neqgqln72j22kej3ux7803c2k986henvvha4thuwfkper4s7r50e8 algo, but with the addition of examples, to the set of rules.
I just went through my following list and realized how many I was following that have not posted for over a month and unfollowed them all. They were all part of my automatic onboarding. I did notice some kind of preference for those who were primal subscribers. It would be an interesting idea to have something set up where automatically unfollow people who have not posted after a certain amount of time.
There are some DVMs and scripts like that. I think nostr:npub1nxa4tywfz9nqp7z9zp7nr7d4nchhclsf58lcqt5y782rmf2hefjquaa6q8 has one.
Time for the nostr:npub1lrnvvs6z78s9yjqxxr38uyqkmn34lsaxznnqgd877j4z2qej3j5s09qnw5 meme.
nostr:note14f63xm2qa3uczc7vj60274q0mlvnds8phd05rjknks00dk3edans49c86g
On Amethyst I have 25 .. no wait .. 67 ..uhh I mean 238 ... wait... wait .. 365 .. oh forget it. I don't have time for this. 😂