Substack CEO Chris Best Doesn’t Realize He’s Just Become The Nazi Bar by Mike Masnick. It’s important to look at this when we think about nostr. Now before you jump to say Mike’s pro-censorship, remember he wrote the very influential piece on social media: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech*

Take a read, I’m curious what folks think? How do we create spaces where we can both have free speech and be able to kick the nazis out of the bar?

https://www.techdirt.com/2023/04/14/substack-ceo-chris-best-doesnt-realize-hes-just-become-the-nazi-bar/

* https://knightcolumbia.org/content/protocols-not-platforms-a-technological-approach-to-free-speech

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You run your own Nostr relay that doesn’t allow nazis but for ppl who want to go to the nazi bar they add that relay

Nostr already won

I saw Masnick’s name and had to double take as I thought I had opened Mastodon

Kick nazis off your relays. Fuck nazis.

Nazis will just create their own relays.

Relays will be regulated.

end scene

How will relays be regulated lmao

FCC

I’m curious and becoming fascinated as to why you’re so certain that relays can and will be regulated.

because no one else is

Which proves nothing, of course.

I’ve been doing this a long time.

Starting in 1999 I helped setup and run the tech for indymedia. We were the first widely available website to allow users without accounts to publish text, images, video, and audio online to an audience. As far as I know, we were the first people to do a live stream in the streets of a major protest, the WTO protest in Seattle in 1999.

Because we run servers that held political content, and didn’t require accounts to post it. We got lots of leaked documents and coverage of things the police didn’t like. We got lots of police warrants and had regular calls with a network of lawyers around the world, including the EFF, who defended us. We had local sites, with different servers, in a network, but we kept each server in a different country than the jurisdiction it served, because it provided legal protection. We moved the DNS ‘owner’ around all over the place, as we got in legal trouble in one country after another. Eventually we settled in Brazil, not because they’re got great protections, but because their legal system is INCREDIBLY slow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indymedia

Then I helped start Odeo, were we took podcasting from an obscure idea that anybody could product radio programs and made it accessible to a broader audience. I helped create TxtMob, a text message social network to coordinate protests and news about social movements and group communication. It was one source of inspiration (among many) for Twitter... which as we all know has had its fair share of struggles about content moderation and abuse. 

More recently, working on decentralized social protocols I've been trying to figure out how to make it work in a way that works as a commons, based on my anarchist values of autonomy, consent, and self-governance. I think we can do that with nostr. 

In figuring out how we can exist, create autonomy, we need to realize that the state exists. If you run a relay on tor, lots can do it, then you can hide who is hosting the content, but most nostr clients don't support tor unfortunately. If the server is on the open internet, then it is possible to identify the person running it, and they can be held accountable based the laws of various governments. What's more, because to distribute software at scale, on iOS and android, you must go through their walled garden app stores. The rules they impose have an even bigger impact than the ones imposed by governments.

If we don't comply with app store rules, they delete the app. This means that for nostr apps that do run on mobile devices, we need to be able to be compliant with the App Store rules. For folks on desktop and web, it's not as controlled. But most people use the internet through their phones, it's important. The App Store rules require us to have content moderation policies and systems. In particular apple is super prudish and won't let you show anything sexually explicit to minors. Sure you can view it on the web on their devices, they don't care. Sure the app creator doesn't control the relays, we're like a web browser... apple and google don't care. 

But even outside the App Store, there are laws like GDPR that doesn't care if the person hosting the content is doing it for friends or as a business. They don't care if it's a peer to peer network or centralized service. I checked this with a German lawyer & judge who specializes in internet / copyright / intellectual property law. We're required to either block users from Europe connecting to our content, or registering a representative. Stupid rule? Yes! We can get along for a long time under the radar, but if we want to become massive, a protocol most people use, then people will try to enforce those rules. Either because they're upset about some content, they want to be forgotten, or want to know who's posting things. Or because they see nostr as a threat and want to shut it down.

So, we need to make it easy for relay operators, client developers, and users to understand the risk and do harm reduction in terms of legal liability.

I was directing my question to #[2]​, but I appreciate your thoughtful reply and understand you’ve got deep experience.

That said, #nostr is a failure if it becomes subject to regulatory capture in this way. We may as well head back to twitter. As the same can and should be said for #Bitcoin.

Sent with love and respect.

Good luck to the state shutting down and regulating my relays 😎

If you think that's the case, then just stick to Twitter 🤡

I don't think any moderation should happen at a protocol level. If Nazis and communists can use http they should be able to use nostr.

Premium relays can do moderation and users can subscribe to clean relays by choice.

Clients can have features to only show follower notes, or people within 1 degree. Perhaps have inference models to scan notes of unknown users.

Moderation needs to be done at the individual level.

Imho

You can pay to subscribe to indexers that proxy all relays and run custom algos for you on your feed. Relays should not censor.

Disagree. I have my own relay and I can do anything I want with it. Nobody has to use my relay if they don't like it, and there are thousands to choose from.

Seems more a need for relays to be transparent in what they allow and remove/block. Most relays are not even configured with a corresponding website. So only via NIP-11 can know the info on relay.

I like the idea of indexer options but you also can’t really force any one person to not moderate their own relay because you can be breaking the law with certain types of content.

If anything, if I ran a relay, I would probably want to subscribe to some moderation algo that guarantees censoring certain illegal content so im not thrown in jail for being willfully ignorant.

Yes, I think this issue is being overlooked by a lot of people.

I think we need to add things to the protocol that make it easier for users and relay operators to choose what content they want to host, promote, and see. This isn’t about censoring as in taking away people’s freedom to publish, rather providing people the freedom from having to see or host content they don’t want to.

That’s why I helped put together the proposed NIP-69, go give us a set of tags so we can easily tag, categorize, and filter content. It applies to both reported and self tagging for content warnings. It does not say what people should do with the content, just makes it easier to make choices and take action.

Running a church relay? Don’t host any content that is in the Porn category.

https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/457

I see thanks for sharing. Good discussion there.

Now does this NIP handle abuse of labeling (eg. using your own puritan view to label something as bad it’s really not that terrible)?

People may end up reporting anything they disagree with or don’t like, even if it’s legal and fine by others.

So it doesn’t say what should be DONE about the labeling. Either as a report or content warning. The relays and users through the client apps will still need to decide what to do about it.

For example, in Nos, we’re thinking of putting a click to reveal if there is a content warning that was added either by the original publisher or somebody who you follow or who they follow, the same way we scope our ‘discover’ tab. Eventually users could choose automatic settings, say, never hide everything reported spam or phishing, keep porn something you have to tap to reveal, and show everything else.

We’ll have some things which are constrained by the app stores, for example, if the user is a minor, we don’t show sexual content and don’t let the user choose. And we’ll keep a copy of the Child Sexual Abuse reports on some relay we run and need to do some checking on that, and block it for everybody. We don’t want to expose our users to legal jeopardy for having pedophilia on their devices.

Again, other relay operators and clients and users are free to make different choices. Host different kinds of content, see different kinds of content.

Makes sense.

I think blurring or collapsing reported content and showing the report reason and text, is a very sensible approach. Then let the user decide whether they want to see it or not.

And something that occurred to me just now: make sure it’s possible to block reporters as well, to prevent report-spam.

Sounds like a right approach to me

We ( #[7]) are working to have a means of at least being legal where we have geographic nodes. We're in the process of determining our ToS and need to find a happy medium of keeping legal and preserving free speech. Right now we depend on relay users reporting to us. Which is not an effective means.

Thanks for reminding me why I don’t read nonsense.

The person interviewing the Substack guy was unbearable, just playing “gotcha” games for engagement. Didn’t even bother trying to understand what the guy was saying.

Agree with the other viewpoint here, 100% open protocol, moderation on relay or client level only.

💯💯💯

People throwing the N-word usually argue in bad faith, and this article appears to be no exception... I couldn't finish it. I'm sure I'll enjoy 'Protocols, Not Platforms...' article more.

If someone wants to create a bar that can serve both Nazis and the rest of us, go for it. It might not work for reasons described, but maybe it will, and if it works we can stop feeling the need to spend our time on Nazi patrol. There’s a difference between a bar and a social network so the analogy only goes so far. And the interviewer was definitely doing a gotcha game. Next question would be some edge case scenario about a 6 foot 7 transgender girl in a girls high school basketball team or something. I think the policy to not get into was a good one.

Yeah, until you’ve been responsible and seen people abusing what you’ve built you don’t get it. Until you’ve seen people advocating things that harm the community you’re trying to foster (even if they’re part of the community)…

Every one of the categories in NIP-69 comes from experience. Not saying it’s perfect, but it’s a “been there, done that” kinda thing . I can’t see anyone with significant social media experience having an issue with 69.

Content moderation preserves free speech. People have to feel safe to share their thoughts.

the tone of this is way over the top. And it clearly stems from the source being comcast owned nbc universal owned vox media owned editor in chief of the verge who frequents cnbc. We aren’t even talking about legacy new media, this source is transparently an attack piece from traditional legacy media who has successfully gas lit the escalation of this piece to headline with “NAZI!” It’s seriously wacko, and to claim that people need a safe space whilst bullying people with extremely non-serious allegations that they are tied to a modern nazi party is Hegelian double speak nonsense.

I think you genuinely want the best for nostr, but the fear approach is uncalled for. Go build a place for people to avoid the number one complain, “it’s just all ‘stack sats” and that same mechanism can help individuals avoid other things that would make their personal utopia worth trading for caring about what some irrelevant faceless person said in the global feed that probably shouldn’t exist, and doesn’t on centralized substack.

I think the primary barriers to nostr’s adoption are around getting enough momentum and experience so that people will join because they friends are here and that’s where the action is. And one major issue is that nostr is considered a bitcoiner thing. Lots of people have negative opinions about bitcoin, and cryptocurrencies in general. So to get nostr to grow, there needs a way for people to join and create communities of people who aren’t interested in bitcoin and don’t want to talk to bitcoiners.

For example, in Nos, we populate our explore tab with a bunch of npubs of people we think represent a diversity of views and communities.

💯 agreed

Idk what you all were talking about above this note but I really agree with this one. Nostr will never get widespread adoption if we don’t stop treating this as just one big orange pilling opportunity. I think the conversation is starting to diversify more but every time a new user gets here they’re hit with “set up your lightning wallet” right away. And every “introduction” website tells you about zaps before you even need to scroll down. To no coiners that’s annoying and to them probably sounds scammy. Yeah, zaps are a massive feature, but they’re just an add on to what nostr really is, and making nostr all about bitcoin is just going to get the same reaction from people that bitcoin itself does.

Yeah, if the first time somebody knows that nostr supports lightning or bitcoin or payments is: “hey I like your stuff, can you setup a lightning wallet so I can send you something to thank you for your contribution” then it’s about adopting the technology and not the ideology or culture.

Before nostrica my nostr experience had very little mentions of plebs, no-coiner, shitcoiner, and memes with glowing red eyes. Then I decided I needed to be part of a larger discussion of folks making parts of the Nostr ecosystem… Now I’ve got lots of maximalist content which I’d rather not wade through.

Respectfully disagree. Nostr—like any upstart—can’t win on content, at least not in the short term. For people swayed by content, the incumbent, walled gardens reign supreme.

To win in the short term, nostr has to take on legacy platforms by beating them at something other than content. Anonymous, rapid payments (zaps) are one such avenue.

Another is competition. By decoupling ID, protocol, client and content, nostr allows participation and flourishing that legacy systems can’t touch.

Curtailing #Bitcoin talk to woo no-coiners is doomed to fail because it takes the game back to the court of content. Instead, Nostr wins by focusing on its strengths—rapid, decentralized development and integrated anonymous micropayments.

I’m not saying you should talk less about #bitcoin. Just that there is a compelling need for new systems like nostr and many communities of folks are looking and not interested in bitcoin culture.

In that case, I’d recommend a custom client.

Legacy, walled garden, social media companies can’t afford to staff development for special interest groups. So instead they produce the same, bland, homogenized UX for everyone.

With nostr, there’s an opportunity to develop bespoke, targeted clients (and/or relays) that cater to specific groups with unique needs.

the talk has lead to the tech, and you gotta let that speak for itself. Winning results in this not being a unique interesting thing about your personality… it’s ironic in conversation about identity (that most are vehemently against) you desperately want to cling to listing your cryptonouns on your profile when you’ve already won here.

I appreciate these perspectives; I think the key might be to continue to build what 'bitcoin culture' means, implies, is immediately associated with. -- I do think there has been something of an effort to associate #bitcoin with a particular cultural leaning, and I agree that, that would certainly not be productive, nor I suspect, possible. Precisely because of the unbiased virtues of the protocol, distributed ledger, blockchain, and the potential. Bitcoin and its future will be written, manifested, and chosen by all - these are early days and 'interesting times.'

Nostr already beats the legacy system before it had zaps because of its general make up and its censorship resistance. Zaps are just an added feature.

We don’t need to curtail the bitcoin talk but we shouldn’t be shoving it down everyone’s throats right when they arrive and there should be a way for them to avoid being caught up in all the bitcoin talk. It’s a turn off to no coiners and I’m speaking from experience. I’ve tried to get several people on here but as soon as I mention bitcoin they’re out. If I explain it without mentioning bitcoin they’re more interested, but then they won’t come because the entire conversation is about bitcoin.

I think two easy solutions are to stop including zaps at the beginning of every single “introduction guide” and clients allowing people to mute words.

At some point a nostr user will learn about zaps just from being here, it doesn’t need to be the selling point that just scares people off.

I’m not saying don’t talk about bitcoin, but what I’m saying is there needs to be space for lots of communities who never want to near about bitcoin or encryption or monetary policy, etc… If you’re person who’s really in to knitting, you want to talk about knitting.

When Occupy Wallstreet started and as occupy grew, the core organizing and form of organizing was explicitly anarchist. Ideologically, an attempt to take the politics of the anti-globalization movement and make it relevant to local concerns as it were. The way of organizing was anarchist, the understanding of the problem and solutions were anarchist. Yet there was an intentional effort to NOT talk about anarchism. It was about the practice, the issues at hand, the people. Sure if you asked, people wouldn’t deny their ideology, but you didn’t join occupy because you had read political theory and decided that you were an anti-authoritarian leftist. You joined because the idea that 1% of the population shouldn’t control the economic and political system. Then in practice, you saw the politics play out and you could decide if you liked it.

If on the other hand Occupy had said, “we want to black pill you to become a true believer in the anarchist revolution and direct action.” Then a lot of people who might like the ideas and find value in participating in the movement would be turned off.

People should join and use nostr because it meets their needs, they can connect and create social space for themselves. Not because how the social software handles payments.

imma just leave this previous rant here

nostr:note1fa4q5vuedyf3e86jfc4g49882p9f6wmqcv6enpxek0psealk6k6sus9w2l

Some random thoughts on what you guys are discussing:

1. I agree that we need more than bitcoin conversations. I think this is an onboarding / discovery problem that needs to be solved. Ideally you’d sign up and be able to choose some topics to follow. Naturally this would reduce your exposure to bitcoin.

2. Nostr is and will be different things for different people and people will join for a variety of reasons not one. For some it will be the nature of the protocol. For others it may be just exploring something new and different. And for some it may actually be the payment stuff.

3. Zaps ARE a huge innovation on top of Nostr and for many will be the distinguishing factor that make it special. To say that zaps should be tucked away somewhere because it scares people off is incorrect IMO. In fact, I would argue it’s the “decentralization” talking points that scare people away. It sounds a lot like crypto / scam industry.

4. I think we’ll see different use cases and clients bring in different audiences who experience nostr differently. If @Zapstr ever comes to life, those people would have little to do with knitting or bitcoin. They’ll just stick to music and possibly general conversations. The same goes for Onlyzaps (not the hashtag but only fans clones and the likes). For these industries, how you handle payments IS the differentiator. It seems people forget these other use cases and only talk about social…

5. That’s all… give it time. Relax. Build. Talk about things other than bitcoin ;) Don’t ask people to set up a wallet. Let them explore on their own.

Also the blog platforms are really game changer.

All those gumroad and patreon like services might be replaced too.

Someone mentioned in a podcast recently, also, machine to machine exchange of messages and payment of services between them.

Yep, many possibilities! We are just very early and mature clients will exist later.

Well said 🫂

3. no one’s arguing that zaps should be tucked away… No one is scared of zaps. 🤦‍♀️

the reality is one can’t set up zaps with out seeing 100 absolutely substance-less “stack sats” posts, and every profile has cryptonouns, which is redundantly dumb if every profile and note has a zap button. This effort might still be needed, if you can stomach push back, out there, but here it’s an attack on zaps.

This is just a problem of discovery. In time it’ll be solved.

Yeah or don’t mention at all.

some are talented enough evangelists that their efforts here might be useful out there, others didn’t see success out there, and have found a circular economy of evangelicalism here that makes them feel successful, but it’s not accomplishing anything except for fulfilling the bad expectations of people who were willing to put their reservations aside and peek inside

I think even talking about making money from your social media posts isn’t a great pitch for most people. Because most people read and don’t post.

🤷‍♂️

…ever shrinking creator funds yada yada…

Is not always about making money. It's about assigning value to this worthless likes.

Maybe the community could create a bot service that will automatically like all your posts once you set it up via DM.

Real friends don't let friends not use Zaps.

I think for those folks who opt into #onlyzaps, Nostr clients could combine zaps and likes into one button. Afterall, it's a zap with 0 sat.

If you like something on nostr, you should repost it, so word gets around and the content has a chance to gain visibility. Since Nostr is not Twitter, it works on decentralized relays.

I agree with all of this. I don’t want zaps tucked away. Anyone who comes to nostr is going to organically learn about zaps, so I don’t think there’s a need to make that priority number 1 right when someone gets here.

Yeah I don’t even bother bringing it up. Also got rid of my laser eyes cat pfp. We might be scaring people away with that.

That poor kitty cat

He’s still pulling all the strings. I’m just the puppet. Who knows he may yank me away and make a comeback!

Agree. Specially point 5. I welcome users I see in global, and most respond fine, but got in a situation one called me spammer and scammer when I sent instructions on how to setup zaps... I got blocked and reported.

Now you mentioned that, I understand a little more why that happened likely

I see it more as, people aren’t giving the room for zaps to speak for itself, jumping in the way with meme terms and substance-less chains of content before anyone could have the time to set up a ln wallet.

from my experience, when I explain IRL the thing many have jumped too is “what about nazi’s” and I’m a Jew we in Los Angeles and that hasn’t been an issue except for how confusing and abrasive that response is too me, and how hollow that makes the call for safe spaces.

but from what I see people commentating on their experience of nostr on ssb, mastadon or bluesky is it’s all crypto, which is fair, and it’s not commentary about zaps, and it’s not about those on the cutting edge, it’s the culture of memes and terms like pleb, no-coiner, shitcoin being used very often with not much substance, is why people recoil.

I think universe / explore tabs are the entire issue. I like the concept of themed pubs, in reality I joined the poetry pub & floss pub but all my content would have to poetry or Libre for that to actually be useful (maybe this works if the thing is to have a different repo per device, and I only note about knitting from my brother digital embroider’s repo). I think some mechanism for people to declare their interest and then jump into a group where notes have been declared to be about that topic is necessary. Nazis and Jews can knit together, and if I’m lost in the woods you bet I’m drinking from the Jerrycan despite that knitting advice coming from Nazi military technoglogy.

Would much of this be resolved if/as relays become easier and more ubiquitous?

Relays are actually incredibly easy to setup and run. You need to be able to follow a tutorial and know how to use a web page to choose settings.

How easy? Does digitalocean or fly.io or railway.app make it a one-click affair?

Wow, this thread exploded. Food for thought.

#[0]

Sure, what app is that?

I was thinking both being able to choose what you don’t want to see but more that we have algorithms and app design to have many communities rather than one centralized one. We already have folks dividing out by language, but that’s not enough.

Some really important issues discussed in this interesting thread, which everyone will have to deal with as the network expands. I really enjoyed reading through the different viewpoints...

#nostr

#[0]

Focus on your own bar, and never mind what other people are doing in other bars.

It really is that simple.

You may not like that answer and think there’s some nerd knobs we can build but there’s really not - let people fragment in to their own groups and then the Nazis aren’t your problem.

I think the best approach is to get some niche relays in place and simultaneously work on clients that allow browsing these relays specifically.

In the long run we will want relays that do some kind of manual or semi-manual curation of people they allow in, but for the short term since we are so few we could just make some crazy relays as experiments, like a relay that only accepts notes that have content containing sets of 3 specific words in them; or a relay that only accepts notes from people having a key with the first hex-character being the next after the last person who posted (I'm getting crazy); or a relay with an invite policy like lobste.rs -- I don't know.

Once we have this idea out there and apps capable of interacting with relays like that there will be possible for groups of every kind to create relays for them, ban bitcoiners and be happy.

"How do you have free speech while censoring the ideology the ruling class hates"

libertarian moment