Just so you know what they are going to try and go with: 
Discussion
Credit nostr:npub1vsl40cuqlthgjacl5vplm4vj2mt9390wvrp7cjuwmhzeg20nfu3q4qund7 on X https://x.com/bill_fowler_/status/1784242051397058719 (afaik)
Immoral decreed nonsense!
They are not the adjudicator of free will! This is absolute madness.
Full doc:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.604938/gov.uscourts.nysd.604938.53.0.pdf
Thank you for linking the full document. For some reason almost no one bothers to do this.
But they did not "TRANSFER" any funds. That was done by the users.
You do not criminally charge the USB cable manufacturer just because a USB cable was used illegally.
So they’re going to declare bitcoin “money”?
Or is there some law that states money doesn’t have to be money?
Well no. Technically in the pan and usb cable example the heat and data do physically exist within the object on their way to the final destination. Same can’t be said of the whirlpool coordinator.
The way that is described everyone is a money transmitter. When I pay for my groceries I am transmitting money. When I deposit my paycheck I am transmitting money. This definition is literally pointless. Why am I not surprised
Is this from the Tornado Cash case?
By that definition their own DNS are equally responsible
Bitcoin is money now?
the usb cable and frying pan examples are nonsensical
Civil disobedience is the only answer to tyranical laws.
I'm glad they consider Bitcoin money now. No more capital gains if I spend some.
Another excellent point!
Similar tactic to Zimmerman defense - it forced the gov’t into a corner.
No different agencies have different classifications for Bitcoin.
FinCEN views Bitcoin as a currency.
The CFTC regards Bitcoin as a commodity.
The SEC considers Bitcoin as a security.
The IRS determine that Bitcoin is a property.
There is no laws. There are only enforcers of the will of the government. If they can stop it by jailing people, they will gladly indugle in violating rights and laws.
This will not end here. The next iteration needs to be impervious to physical attacks.
Laws are obviously only for the average pleb and poor people.
The world's going to shit and nobody seems to care...
IMO Samourai doesn't even fit the definition of money transmitter though. Which in the Tornado Cash case that definition fits because they accepted the users ETH when users made deposits to the pools. As stated in that document, a money transmitter is either "a person engaged in the acceptance of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency from one person AND the transmission of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency to another person or location by any means" or "any other person engaged in the transfer of funds."
In Samourai's Whirlpool architecture, they never accept bitcoin from the users nor do they transfer it. Users transfer bitcoin to themselves by providing a UTXO to a collaborative transaction and receive their bitcoin back in a new UTXO. The user's wallet tx history is a chain of self-transfers that are blinded to the coordinator. It's difficult to even make a fiat analogy because there is literally no depositing, accepting, or disbursing of bitcoin taking place between any two entities. Every Whirlpool tx is just 5 people making identical self-transfers together.
Excellent point! Wallets should have a “read-only” mode which means that they are incapable of signing, and then transmitting, any transactions. The deniable plausibility then becomes “I was just viewing existing transactions, already transmitted and received, outside of the wallet”. Naturally, since apps are global, there is a method to turn this off if outside of the US/EU - and it asks on generation of the private key / account.
Just like with cash, if you meet up with your friends to exchange bills at a specific place it doesn't mean that the place is a money transmitter.
It is the physical properties of a USB cable that “controls” the transfer of data. It is the physical properties of a frying pan that “controls” the transfer of heat.
So frustrating they must be defeated.
So my USB cable is a money launderer.
Data has value so if you're laundering outside Microsoft, apple, etc. perhaps
This is just ridiculous! 2+2=5
Orwell was a time traveler.
If I pass you a grocery list that happens to be a seed phrase and post it on the fridge, the paper manufacturer, the pen manufacturer the fridge manufacturer and I are money transmitters.
If I make a phone call to a bank on behalf of my disabled relative then both the phone company and I are money transmitters.
Hoping that Bernstein v US tsunami happens and wipes out all these parasites. Then some based AGs sue and win.
Bitcoin doesn't transfer funds or money, it only transfers btc, a "collectable" under the law. Is a baseball card dealer a "money transmitter"? No. Not even if they sell online, the same is true of gold, art, etc. As baseball cards are KYC free it is discriminatory to infringe on btc this way.
Perhaps an enterprising bitcoiner will start a KYC free bitcoin for gold exchange (since all transactions under $10,000 are non-reportable) to highlight the discrimination.
The only way the govt can claim btc is transferring funds/money is if they reclassify btc as a currency. Note: I'm way too smart to be a lawyer so you may want to forward this to whatever legal team will be fighting this as they are likely to overlook it.
Bitcoin doesn't transfer anything. It just reassigned ownership on the blockchain. Bitcoin doesn't exist on its own the way cash or gold can. It's like the rai stones. It can't be moved. The only thing that "transferred" is ownership.
Funny that they go to a dictionary definition - that's because if they read the definition from the same code that defines a money transmitter, their argument falls apart:
"Money Transmitter":
"Transmittal of funds":
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-31/part-1010/section-1010.100#p-1010.100(ddd)
"Funds transfer":
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-31/part-1010/section-1010.100#p-1010.100(w)
These regulations clearly are about financial institutions accepting orders to pay (negotiable instruments) and paying a third party on someone else's behalf.
That's a convenient definition if I've ever seen one
*hands five dollars to cashier*
Cashier *speaking into hidden microphone up sleeve* “we gottem”
*feds swarm in*
Fed: “sir you’re under arrest for being an illegal money transmitter, you’ve moved money from one person to another without going through us”
Stupidest thing I've ever heard
They just make shit up as they go.
History shows that when all else fails they'll send in ISIS (or some new one) to terrorize everyone into submission.
Just so you know the definition of "money transmission" does not require the money transmitter to custody the money, or know about the "money transmission", or do "things".
I have some seed words in my head . . . so I cant walk around anymore? what about air travel to foreing jurisdictiions? do i have to forget seedphrase first? but the blockchain exists globally and btc is there not in my head so am I transmitting anything? Like . . . transmit . . . nothing is moving anywhere. its a record change. so ledger change is now transmission? this is so whacky I gotta think its cover for othe mess thats about to blow.
I bought some carrots at the farmers market using fiat. That makes me s money transmitter.
Everyone is a money transmitter.
Are trains and airplanes money transmitters? They transfer people with their money on them.
I don't see that working.
The replies here are really good.
Been having these conversations for a couple decades. It always seemed people just did not understand money.
This thread is an eye opener - the reality of the situation and the knowledge of the 'system' is growing fast!
Guess I could have seen this by the #Bitcoin price. But it's so great to see awareness grow! And see how well understood some stupid money transmitting nonsense can be.
Or maybe it's just people on Nostr are smarter? ;-)
Baseless bullshit. They won't get away with this. Here's a good opinion piece.
So the US agrees with us that #Bitcoin is money. Good.
If the wind blows a buck from an undisclosed source and I pick it up, is the wind the transmitter?
Absolutely retarded 🤡