To continue on nostr:npub1h8nk2346qezka5cpm8jjh3yl5j88pf4ly2ptu7s6uu55wcfqy0wq36rpev ‘s excellent conversation starter:
What actually makes a relay worth paying for to YOU?
#asknostr
Discussion
Nothing. I don’t think about relays. I do think about clients. I’m happy to support a client and expect them to pass some of that value to relays.
Sorry, just speaking the truth. Too many years of my data sold for “free” experiences 😂 😿 😿
- Clear communication about the relay’s data retention policy.
- implemented NIPs
- do you retain any user data (IP, location,…)
- performance
At the moment to avoid spam and hopefully be trustworthy with my notes. Also being left out of the conversation, FOMO to not miss a note.
Coming from a normie, nothing. Not exactly going to win me friends but that's the truth. If relays need to make money, they need to work seemingly in the background. Maybe it's a percentage of zaps allocated.
Relays are going to be hard to monetise at scale.
Evangelists will pay to support any technology they align with.
Most people don’t care about ideology.
Web3 promise is to build money into the network. Perhaps rather than pay for a relay, pay for a post, a tiny amount, say 1 or 2 Sats, perhaps more for posts with images or videos.
This then goes to support relays, apps, and general costs.
This sounds a lot like zap splits, but for every interaction.
So something embedded in the client that handles this based on your relay list? So it would be kinda transparent to the user right?
Or am I reading you wrong?
Yes, I think the user would be informed or asked about fees, once agreed this would be paid automatically.
The level they agree to defines which relays they qualify for and what level of service they get.
Perhaps split fees, I haven’t thought this through fully.
This is just thinking out loud!
That’s excellent. This is the thread for it.
I hadn’t thought about tiers of service based upon the splits you agree to. That’s a cool idea. Things like upload limit and retention period for example?
Yes or even volume. Perhaps if you’re a heavy poster, you can get bulk discounts.
Also perhaps either a freemium model or a free trial period.
The challenge would be communicating that (ideally) in a way that even a 12 year old would understand.
Yes, the pricing model would have to be very clear.
Perhaps giving examples like:
Typical usage:
100 posts per month costs $xx.xx (xx Sats)
1,000 posts per month costs $xx.xx (xx Sats)
Would that be for the aggregate, then the client split it across the relays?
Yes, the end user doesn’t care how the money is split.
But that detail could be made available as an expansion tab for transparency
Relays & Clients then compete for business - perhaps?
Think how Lightning nodes compete for fees by offering cheap routing fees.
Competitors keeps fees low, but the best node operators can make a decent living from routing payments
Yes, I think I can see the correlation. Almost like a bidding pool. Users would set their split, and that would determine the budget for relays, etc.
Users could also favorite certain relays they wanted to always carry their messages.
Yes, new relays could enter the market by offering low fees to start with and then increase them as they build their reputation.
I love this idea.
You could also have an amboss style monitoring system for relays, giving stats for things like uptime, connectivity, fees etc which feeds into the suggestion algorithm.
I have been paying for relays based on the reputation/principles of the individual/group that is maintaining the relay. I am a non technical user and do not understand the in and outs of relay management, but do know that it takes time and resources to maintain one. I am more than willing to pay for this service.
I am honored, as I know you’re on mine. Is there anything that would really set it off though? Some way to really sell you on the values, or a specific value you really look for in an operator?
In a perfect relay, I would like:
-to always be able to connect
-to filter spam (airdrop bots etc) without anything else other than criminal activity
-to always broadcast my notes to as many other relays (blaster)
-to be able to easily rebroadcast my notes and backup
-to notify me if my notes are going to be deleted, so that I could back them up myself
-to remind me to pay up for the service in a dm (subscription, or splits, does't really matter.)
Is there some reason why people aren't running their own?
I almost was but then I know I am sharing its address with the world and I couldn't see how to put auth on it. VPS has more important duties, I'm not letting it get polluted by spam.
You can setup a private relay, where you only have write privileges.
Things that add stability to what I see user-side across the multiple (and often unstable) internet connections that I access in a day have value to me.
So aggregators like Nostr.wine are probably valuable to you, by making sure you’re getting data from many places over one connection?
It definitely seems to help. Paying for wine has kept notes & replies available fairly consistent but I still often don't see zaps, reactions, or reply counts. Shutting off certain relays helps to an extent but figuring out which & for where has been a lot of trial & error.
They are my favorite relay for that reason.
No spam, low latency, reasonable downtime. Trust/reputation of the relay owner/maintainer (not as important as the first 3 points , but still a consideration). I don’t know which NIPs are best to have on a relay. In the end, I do know there’s no such thing as a free lunch. I’m more than willing to continue to pay for this service.