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Greg
1c52ebc82654e443f92501b7d0ca659e78b75fddcb9c5a65f168ec945698c92a
I like to learn things and build things | bitcoin enthusiast | energy production maximalist | abundance advocate

I’ve been thinking deeply about content moderation on Nostr.

I’m very pro-freedom-tech but there are problems we will need to solve to scale and be acceptable to a wider audience of user.

To help get the ball rolling on improving Nostr’s ability to keep bad actors from poisoning the well here’s a proposal for a freedom maximising strategy for dealing with illegal or just insanity content (as determined by Nostr users)

I know this’ll be controversial so I’m looking for feedback and refinements before trying to build something to get this ball rolling.

https://gregwhite.blog/nostr-content-moderation/

Cc nostr:npub1yye4qu6qrgcsejghnl36wl5kvecsel0kxr0ass8ewtqc8gjykxkssdhmd0

Replying to Avatar Geist

Not sure where to jump in so I'll do it at the top. I think you raise a lot of good points, I try to direct my zaps to mostly people writing code with a little bit for the best memes (because I think we need to seed our ideas culturally to keep making progress). That said its not a whole lot, its hard for me to justify just randomly zapping around, at every post I read.

I think we need something like, finished consumer products and services being delivered via nostr to actually drive the economy here. I don't think merch does it, I'm not buying a fucking sticker, and you'll have to seriously impress me to buy art because I have limited wall space and its mostly filled with tightly selected stuff (theme, color palette, medium), and I don't think most people even care about stuff. I can't even justify paying for a podcast or someone's take on where we are going, macro, politics etc. because I genuinely think they are all toolbags that think they are the wrench.

I'd pay someone in sats for high quality food like free range eggs and bacon, I'd pay someone in sats to render cleaning or lawn care services, I'd even zap peter McCormick if he'd just post some clips from his football team. I'll say, we need some very creative people to make soverignity and freedom cool, like system of a down and rage against the machine back in the early 2000's cool, I just havent seen it yet.

I think to make up for the shortcomings in the near term, we need to make relay operation cheaper, and I think that looks like scaling solutions, and to sound like a broken record we need to integrate keet.io to take the burden off relays. We need to turn nostr into a handshake and use other protocols to bypass relays after the handshake is made. Lower cost relays -> higher profit margins -> stabilized economy that isn't having the lifeblood sucked out of it by AWS.

👆

Replying to Avatar eliza

This is genius. I’m just a survivor advocate so I can only take the conversation so far on my end. The tech based solutions will have to come from those who understand what’s possible. I can’t offer that.

What I can say is that on a personal level I care deeply about freedom. I don’t want to see #nostr or #bitcoin get a bad reputation as a result of poor planning.

If abusers use zaps on Nostr to distribute and purchase illegal content, that’s what the public will remember. That’s what they will be told goes on here by governments and the corporate press.

The corporate press won’t probably write about a survivor sharing their story and being allowed to speak without the fear of censorship at the hands of the powerful or the most beautiful parts about Nostr.

Negative press could be used as a reason to explain why this type of freedom “shouldn’t be encouraged or allowed.” Those seeking power and control have an interest in maintaining their power. If the public uses corporate tech platforms, the governments still have some control over the voices of the people. Some countries have more censorship options than others.

I’ve played the movie forward because I care. I’d expect the most aggressive attacks from the governments and corporate press imaginable (just like with Ross but worse) and they will use the very real crimes against children as an excuse.

Get ahead of all of it. Do whatever is possible to brace for impact.

Protect your freedom like adults, not because it’s fun, this conversation sucks actually, but because you care more about freedom than fun. When you realize what is at stake you move differently. 💜 nostr:note1f3jhpn0f0lls3gapum64jk22ta703gys92pvpsxh7ls0da6ad9hsxe36tt

Agreed! Can’t wait to make progress

Hey does anyone know why flights are always delayed now? Like specifically (not just because COVID)?

It doesn’t feel like it was like this a few years ago.

Absolutely. You’re not being annoying. It’s something that’s important to reckon with and it’ll smack us all in the face at one point or another. So it’s best to plan now.

I’ve been finishing up some stuff on my https://relay.guide project to discover relays. And I hope to work on something like consent-based content moderation plugins for relays next.

That would work well with the relay guide so we can label relays by their content moderation strategy (none, only what’s legally mandated, aggressive, etc) so users can choose what environment they want to live in.

As time goes one I think people will sort themselves out and relay operators will be incentivised to use some passive content moderation strategy (by outsourcing it to a ban lost provider) in order to keep operating.

Anyway I’ll be taking a pass at this because it matters a lot to me.

Very good points!

I think the pattern that will maximise freedom and allow users to filter out content they don’t want is by subscribing to ban lists.

Some folks would do the work of listing all the npubs that they deem as “known sources of spam/violent content/porn/CP/etc” and we pay some small amount as a user to subscribe to the ban lists we want to filter out feed

They do the work (manually and/or with algorithms) to make the ban list and we can subscribe to it.

There may eventually be many providers that use different standards to determine what npubs get into the ban list, how long an npub stays on the list, etc. that way there is competition and choice for users.

I’d imagine clients would suggest the ban list providers they are working best. And relays may even use the same to reject events submitted by known sources of content the relay provider doesn’t want to host.

I think this could be the foundation of a freedom maximising way to make Nostr safer.

Or users explicitly subscribing to ban lists, or a collection of ban lists maybe

Here’s a good primer on the legal requirements of running stuff like relays https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/12/user-generated-content-and-fediverse-legal-primer

When it comes to CP: legally you there are steps you can take to absolve the operator of a lot of responsibility.

One of the things is to force anyone posting to the relay to agree to a terms of service. I haven’t seen a relay implement this in any way besides publishing the TOS as part of the relay metadata.

If law enforcement alerts you to content that should be taken down then you need to do that or face consequences in that jurisdiction. But that’s all reactive. That’s why it’s wise to publish real contact info in the metadata of the relay as to who is the admin so you can respond to requests.

Morally it’s a different story. There are no good content moderation tools for relays and none on the way that automate it in a way that would make it a hobbyist level time commitment to contain the issue on a moderately active relay.

It’s a challenge I’ve been thinking deeply about and hope to connect with nostr:npub1yye4qu6qrgcsejghnl36wl5kvecsel0kxr0ass8ewtqc8gjykxkssdhmd0 about at some point because I have some ideas that would make it lower effort on the relay operator side, but still cordon off relays that don’t block known sources of CP or other content that’s illegal or despicable.

Hey nostr:npub1r3fwhjpx2njy87f9qxmapjn9neutwh7aeww95e03drkfg45cey4qgl7ex2 and any other relay experts…

We’ve discussed creating a Nostr Report paid relay in the past to offset operations and give back premium content to supporters. Can you discuss the risks/benefits? Is this feasible or would it be too much hassle?

Greg White, [Aug 22, 2023 at 5:25:31 PM]:

🤔 interesting question.

I don’t know if anyone running a relay is running it at a profit, but I haven’t run one publicly so I don’t know how many adopters you need to make it so.

Most clients I’ve seen only support a “fee to join” model which means you need endless new users to make it work.

What you really want is like a monthly thing, or a “per post” charge but I’ve not seen anyone implement that yet. nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z is working on more robust relays though I think.

It’s not a terrible hassle if you use relaying.io but that’s contributing to centralisation of relays (to that one provider). But better to have more relays, it’s still a step in a good direction.

It’s non trivial to run it yourself unless you’re very comfortable with AWS, Digital Ocean, or something similar.

What other questions do you have?

Overall relays need more dev investment or Nostr will struggle. I’ve seen the count of active relays decline by a lot over the last month on the ones I’m tracking on https://relay.guide.

Thanks! Lemme know if you have feature requests.

Next up is the ability to manage your preferred relays from relay.guide so you can add new ones right from there (authed via alby or nos2X)

Been thinking about where this all goes with Bitcoin.

The price isn’t the end goal after all.

https://gregwhite.blog/bitcoin-endgames/

Feels like an invitation to post about non Nostr and non Bitcoin topics. Gotta have interesting content to attract more folks.

Or we have to have a set of killer features you can’t get on X or any other social media.

In retrospect this question would have been a good candidate for swarmstr.com

Directly earning for making content is best here. No middlemen. I want more of that however we can build towards it.

Maybe it’s just more users using Nostr so there’s more of an audience to provide content for.

Maybe it’s being able to congregate with communities (with relays being more themed than they currently are) so we can discover and be discovered.

Not sure!

nostr:npub1sg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63q0uf63m any update on the idea for selling space heaters that happen to mine Bitcoin for the owner?

I wanna support it however I can. And I bet others might feel the same. It’s just such a damned clever way to decentralize mining again 😂

Thanks! If I was a swift dev I’d jump in but I’m in way over my head with that 😅