Subnostr

How do you not understand what inflation is at this point.

Maybe the word debasement will be better suited to your vocabulary?

Either way it has nothing to do with NGU.

I have plenty of these lmk if you want more

note19rm0tseslkayyglpdnmhek9ygd3u64fv07q76h30wv3yd3xh3exqdq2pg0

Replying to

B.O.P

How about don’t tell me what to do with my money 👍

I was offering you a solution to your low IQ take.

Use your surveillance NFT coin idgaf

Replying to

Tetsu Tamasi

Thank #moreno for stealing your purchasing power by empowering your inner dumbass.

If any of us can ruin it for you, you should question the shitcoin you using. Have a nice day and GFY while you at it.

Then don't hold it long term. Use it.

Problem solved. Next!

Replying to

B.O.P

Ok cool, but can Monero hold its value against bitcoin over any period of time? No? Ok HFSP.

Then don't hold it longterm...Use it.

Do I have think for you apes?

Replying to

Would you change your mind if more countries made bitcoin legal tender? Bitcoin is used in white markets in El Salvador already. It’s also used in some free cities and countries Africa.

No. A government sanctioning usage of Bitcoin has ZERO meaning. It is artificial. White market (state approved) use means nothing.

El Salvador is a terrible example. They banned all competing crypto and artificially propped Bitcoin up using the state. Then they have their citizens use the custodial Chivo wallet. Complete trash. That is not organic Bitcoin adoption or usage.

A free market voluntarily adopting (the black and gray markets) would be the true test. When people choose it out of all other choices. Not foisted on them by governments. What is the closest to that? Darknet Markets where Monero (less than 1% bitcoin mcap) is displacing Bitcoin.

Replying to

Gold isn’t the most salable good and it is still money. It doesn’t have to be the most saleable.

I disagree, Bitcoin is a great medium of exchange. It has the strongest network and more liquidity than monero.

I don’t consider “monero shill” to be name calling or offensive.

I wouldn’t say Bitcoin is more private than monero but liquid might be.

How would you run a node if everyone used monero?

It happened before in the early days of bitcoin. The developers patched it and forked. The users adopted the patch and it was fixed. The fact that someone caught it and they were able to fix it proves how robust it is. BUT if that guy did exploit the bug, the dev team could release a patch and give users the option to fork to the new chain with 21 million bitcoin or stay on the original chain with the inflation. The market will choose the best coin and I don’t think it would be a very difficult choice. It’s not that much of a threat lmao

Yes an auditable supply keeps everyone in check. If blackrock claims to own 5 million bitcoin, the supply could be tracked on the ledger. If something smells fishy, people start withdrawing their bitcoin. This would be equivalent to a bank run. People will get wrecked but it would be necessary to wash out the scam and then people will learn to hold their own keys.

I already said that the trade off with bitcoin is you have to take responsibility of your privacy. It’s not a big deal to me though.

Lol that’s fine I don’t disagree that monero is more private but it’s still a shitcoin and you can practice privacy with bitcoin: coinjoin, payjoin, liquid.

Shill: "One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle."

Are you saying I'm intentionally trying to dupe bystanders? or swindle people? Words have meaning. It's all negative connotations.

High tx fees mean the more you use Bitcoin the poorer you get.

Every bitcoins history is distinguishable from another (non fungible).

Lack of strong default privacy.

All these things make for a poorer MoE vs something like Monero.

Like I said not everyone is going to use Monero. I answered here: note1vmdu2c4k8398aprpuveevs0kpmecj9dtsns8muh5wdfu36q4dyhsh5unn2

About bitcoins past exploit bug...This was not early days. It was 2018. If it was exploited hardforks do not solve this either. Just think about it. If someone took advantage and used that "fake" Bitcoin, hardforking doesn't compensate all the users who were given "fake" Bitcoin in exchange for real services or products. You would be screwing over all those users by hardforking out the "fake" Bitcoin. There is no current solution for an exploited inflation bug that is taken advantage of. Not to mention the destruction it would bring to Bitcoin's credability or immutability.

You're relying that every time an exploit bug is discovered that a single good samaritan anonymous user will alwyas do the right thing. This is crazy and Bitcoin was extremely lucky.

Sure it might not work long term buy Blackrock can definitely get away with IOUs:

If you DONT think Bitcoin is private:

1) Verifying all their Bitcoin is useless if you can't verify all their liabilities

If you DO believe Bitcoin is private:

1) Verifying all their Bitcoin is useless if you can't verify all their liabilities

2) not publish which addresses belong to them.

3) obfuscate using the same supposed privacy methods you use.

No, the trade off for Bitcoin is inferior privacy (obfuscation vs encryption) *ON TOP OF* taking on that responsibility (optional "privacy"). Even when done perfectly it will always be inferior privacy to Monero because Bitcoin is a public blockchain.

Coinjoining is obfuscation. Weaker privacy. All range of connections and amounts are visible. It can be deobfuscated with more data or by users unintentionally messing up. Tedious, more expensive, and time consuming as well.

Liquid is not more private than Monero. It only hides amounts. It also has a tiny fraction of Monero's anon set. It is also a permissioned network. Many other problems: https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/1689337656319016960

Liquid transaction (Confidential Transactions):

Alice sent $[?] to Bob

Monero transaction (Confidential Transactions, Stealth Addys, Ring Sigs):

6% chance Alice sent $[?] to [?]

Replying to

There is no incentive for me to use it, with Bitcoin I get to save it & spend it at a later date without having to take on debasement risk.

This isn't hard.

If you want more tedious, expensive, slower, inferior privacy then ya you have no use for Monero.

Short term volatility is basically the same for Bitcoin and Monero. You could have a slight profit or loss. It's a wash. You're right this isn't hard.

Do you at any point in time hold greater than $0 fiat? Why are you risking debasement?

Replying to

How do you not understand what inflation is at this point.

Maybe the word debasement will be better suited to your vocabulary?

Either way it has nothing to do with NGU.

I repeat: You don't have to save in Monero longterm to use it.

You're telling me if Bitcoin price never changed or declined over time you would keep hodling it? You're full of it. Of course it is about NGU.

That is all your point is against any other crypto ever is.

Price chart. Price charts. Price charts.

Replying to

and you missed out muun too

https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix

You have no privacy from the a third party (phoenix) when sending a transaction to someone.

https://phoenix.acinq.co/privacy

Muun is not a true lightning wallet. But you can throw it in if you like. Won't make much difference to the ratio of custodial vs noncustodial.

Replying to

so it comes to a question of why we use lightning?

yes because unlike wbtc, it is non custodian.

so why are we promoting custodian lightning wallet heavily then??

Bitcoin has been an excellent store of value so far*

Any extrapolation into the future is speculation.

Some interesting download stats for your point:

Custodial (no privacy):

Chivo >1Million

Wallet of Satoshi >500K

Strike >500K

Bitcoin Beach Wallet >100K

Non custodial (without node, not trustless, no privacy):

Phoenix >50K

Breez >10K

Non custodial (with node, potential privacy):

Zeus >5K

Replying to

There was no implied prediction. My initial post was about the actual performance thus far, which we can objectively see is falling behind bitcoin. I am humbly following what the market is determining to be the best money. I used to be much more bullish on gold but I was wrong and I’ve adjusted my views. Money is a winner take all race and it humbles a lot of people.

And yes second layers have trade offs. Everything has a trade off. There is no perfect solution. But there is a balance and bitcoin has the ability to adapt and change to meet those needs. The beautiful thing about the way bitcoin adapts is that it actually incentivizes you to improve it. What annoys me about monero shills is that they don’t acknowledge the trade offs of monero. Do you run a node on monero? Do you mine monero? If monero became the global currency of the world, would it remain decentralized? The blockchain limit of monero is much larger which would make it unaffordable to run a node and keep it decentralized if they actually got the same level of activity that Bitcoin has. Ironically, the fees would rise on monero as well in that world. So what’s the solution then? 😂

The other problem with monero is that the ledger isn’t public and cannot be audited. I know it must be surprising as a privacy advocate to see such a statement but it’s actually very important to know the total supply to prevent paper trading. This is the problem with the price of gold. Since no one knows how much gold exists and you can’t audit the supply of gold held by central banks, they can easily manipulate the price of gold with paper trading. That can also be done with monero. If monero grew bigger than Bitcoin, it would fail because central banks would paper trade monero and suppress the price. Imagine if blackrock launched a monero etf, it would be game over. They can’t do that with bitcoin because you can see the total supply. So even though Bitcoin isn’t perfect in terms of privacy, if you practice privacy yourself on bitcoin, you get the best of both worlds. You get immutability, scarcity, and privacy. You just have to put in a little extra effort for privacy on bitcoin but that trade off is reasonable to me.

My position on bitcoin does not mean I know the future. The future is uncertain and every decision you make regarding anything in your life requires that you make a decision based on what you think is most likely to happen.

Monero is for ANYONE, not necessarily EVERYONE.

It does not have some one money world domination delusion like the bitcoin world. Highly doubt either Bitcoin or Monero will ever be global money. Their power comes from black and gray markets first and foremost. It is copium to think they will be allowed on white markets, without any cucked version of themselves, if the state has anything to say about it.

Monero can support between roughly 10x - 100x more transactions on current protocol with no more upgrades without straining current tech limits. It already cut down transaction size by ~80% since inception. It's scalability will keep improving over time and consumer tech is always getting better. As long as rate of adoption is equal to or below the rate of consumer tech advancement and protocol scalability improvements (this caveat applies to any crypto including Bitcoin) Monero will be fine.

Replying to

ok. you have a point considering bolt12 is not ready yet

Yes, bolt12 looks like a nice improvement for lightning. Any idea when it is planned for?

Replying to

There was no implied prediction. My initial post was about the actual performance thus far, which we can objectively see is falling behind bitcoin. I am humbly following what the market is determining to be the best money. I used to be much more bullish on gold but I was wrong and I’ve adjusted my views. Money is a winner take all race and it humbles a lot of people.

And yes second layers have trade offs. Everything has a trade off. There is no perfect solution. But there is a balance and bitcoin has the ability to adapt and change to meet those needs. The beautiful thing about the way bitcoin adapts is that it actually incentivizes you to improve it. What annoys me about monero shills is that they don’t acknowledge the trade offs of monero. Do you run a node on monero? Do you mine monero? If monero became the global currency of the world, would it remain decentralized? The blockchain limit of monero is much larger which would make it unaffordable to run a node and keep it decentralized if they actually got the same level of activity that Bitcoin has. Ironically, the fees would rise on monero as well in that world. So what’s the solution then? 😂

The other problem with monero is that the ledger isn’t public and cannot be audited. I know it must be surprising as a privacy advocate to see such a statement but it’s actually very important to know the total supply to prevent paper trading. This is the problem with the price of gold. Since no one knows how much gold exists and you can’t audit the supply of gold held by central banks, they can easily manipulate the price of gold with paper trading. That can also be done with monero. If monero grew bigger than Bitcoin, it would fail because central banks would paper trade monero and suppress the price. Imagine if blackrock launched a monero etf, it would be game over. They can’t do that with bitcoin because you can see the total supply. So even though Bitcoin isn’t perfect in terms of privacy, if you practice privacy yourself on bitcoin, you get the best of both worlds. You get immutability, scarcity, and privacy. You just have to put in a little extra effort for privacy on bitcoin but that trade off is reasonable to me.

My position on bitcoin does not mean I know the future. The future is uncertain and every decision you make regarding anything in your life requires that you make a decision based on what you think is most likely to happen.

https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice/

Bitcoin is not the most saleable good, so it is NOT money. I thought you were into Austrian Economics? You should know this.

It also lacks ideal characteristics of money such as fungibility.

Monero and Bitcoin are both Mediums of Exchange. Bitcoin is a good SoV so far, but a poor MoE vs Monero (two orders of magnitude higher tx fees, not fungible, not private). We are seeing Monero displace Bitcoin on Darknet Markets. The closest thing to a free market currently possible. Ultimate skin in the game.

Arrogant strike #2: "monero shills" and I have yet to call you any names.

Yes, and even bitcoin has trade offs. Bitcoiners constantly tout it's transparent auditability as a strength, but then also think that same blockchain is more private than Monero. You can't have your cake and eat it too, sorry.

Yes I run a node. Yes I mine. Yes I ackowledge Monero has trade offs.

Monero is more opaque with complex auditability. But in practice, no bitcoiner takes advantage of their chains transparency. No bitcoiner is checking every 10 minutes that all inputs = all outputs in case of implementation bugs. You just run a node and pay no mind. Just as a Monero user would.

Did you know there was a hidden inflation bug in Bitcoin only an anonymous user knew? They couldve easily exploited it, but very luckily they were an honest actor who secretly let the devs know (who couldve also decided to exploit it). If they did exploit it, how would detectable inflation help after the fact? It wouldnt.

An exploited inflation bug would be equally catastrophic once it happened to either Bitcoin or Monero. Attackers have the advantage. There is no good solution to fix an exploited inflation bug without hurting other users on either Bitcoin or Monero.

www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/09/21/the-latest-bitcoin-bug-was-so-bad-developers-kept-its-full-details-a-secret

"If monero grew bigger than Bitcoin, it would fail because central banks would paper trade monero and suppress the price."

There you go predicting the future again. Take your own advice man.

You think an auditable supply keeps Blackrock from making paper Bitcoin? Lol

And if none of that convinces you - there is no reason you must hold Monero longterm. You can just use it. And it nullifies all your supply auditability fears. Continue saving in Bitcoin, spend with Monero.

No, you don't get the best of both worlds with Bitcoin. Trade offs exists you said this yourself. You give up privacy. But there you go trying to have your cake and eat it too. You don't acknowledge Bitcoin's own trade offs but get mad when "monero shills" do the same thing.

Ceteris parabis Monero will always be more anonymous and private than Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a PUBLIC blockchain.

Replying to

i dont zap on non-custodian wallet. yes.

but i keep my bitcoin in non-custodian ones. all routed through tor

Saving Bitcoin is one thing. Spending is another. You seem like you are doing the saving part well.

Using custodial and non-private wallets to spend is not my thing, and runs counter to the bitcoin ethos imo, but it is your money to use however you wish.

Replying to

problem is i dont find a good usecase to use for short term.

not belittling monero but at least i can still use LN for zaps

Do you zap with a non custodial lightning wallet? Is it private?

If you don't care about that stuff, then yes, you don't need Monero.

Otherwise, check out these links if interested. Particularly the Spend link:

Wallets: pastebin.com/KZxSuu9x

Get: pastebin.com/sERCCpVd

Spend: pastebin.com/7A7cR7rh

Learn: pastebin.com/jU0Dtjnd

Replying to

nostr:nevent1qqsvh3s3jugp07xac7jnx2nxeq83uda38a5hqm8a9m5hp3fyzczkhjcppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzpc3xpfa0xwem5vq8gygug4ne8nh4354tg0zevk7mke2ljruh8xdvqvzqqqqqqypdxrem

Save in Monero at your own risk.

You don't have to save in Monero longterm to use it.

Any future promises for Bitcoin NGU is all speculation.

Replying to

gak

Genuine Question for #xmr entusiasts.

Litecoin lost its use after #bitcoin 's lightning network provided speed for the network.

What will be the use of #monero if Bitcoin creates new measures of privacy and anonymity? or will it happen the same as litecoin?

From what I'm exposed to it seems almost no vendors use lightning. And if they do it is a small fraction of their purchases vs other crypto.

But let's say for now your claim is true. Lightning has it's own unique trade offs. It's interactivity makes it a bitch to use in any sovereign manner. That is why greater than 95% use custodial lightning wallets. Can you call custodial usage bitcoin "usage"? It also doesn't have the same security guaruntees as on chain.

If, all things equal, second layer privacy on bitcoin turns out better I would use it. But as above it would undoubtedly come with it's own unique trade offs different from Monero, so the usecase for Monero will always be there. It will never be a full substitute.

Guess we will have to all wait and see it play out.

Replying to

You know that energy production gets cheaper over time right? And mining equipment gets more efficient. Storage space has gotten cheaper, that’s why running a Bitcoin node is still affordable today with a large blockchain. Your arrogance is very clear, you think you can predict the future but you cannot. If tx fees get too expensive, the market will provide second layer solutions. You should study Austrian economics because it makes it clear that predicting how a market economy will function is impossible. People already pay an exorbitant price for the money they currently use through inflation. They also indirectly pay fees in goods and services. Every credit card transaction has about a 3% fee. The merchant passes that fee back on to the customer. The market will humble everyone that thinks they know the future. Enjoy your shitcoin.

https://mises.org/wire/why-fungibility-important-understanding-money-and-crypto

Your reply started by calling Monero users clowns with an implied prediction. And I'm the arrogant one. LOL. You are very humble yourself my guy. Maybe pause and reflect.

Second layer solutions might solve it if the tx volume is high enough, but they also drain away potential tx fees from on chain. Second layers also come with their own major trade offs that strike down pillars of Bitcoin. Ecash(Custodial), Liquid(Permissioned), Lightning(Interactive), Drivechains(change mining incentives) and many many more.

Austrian economics is great, but Mises and Menger couldn't have ever predicted paradigm shifts such as crypto. It is it's own field with it's own unique dynamics. Gold doesn't stop existing if people stop mining it like Bitcoin.

People pay an exorbitant price for fiat because there was no alternative until recently. Only less worse forms of shit. And most people are unaware or ignorant.

You say it will humble everyone that thinks they know the future. Yet it's implied you know the future by being all in on Bitcoin. Applies to everyone but you?

Replying to

You need to substantiate such a large claim. Where is your evidence?

No I don't. It's simple logic.

If there is no more block subsidy tx fees will have to make up for it. And if you expect the same or more people to onboard demand for blockspace will go up. All this means high tx fees. Unless you expect less users over time? That would mean the only other option is Bitcoin security fails catastrophically.

Replying to

This question doesn’t make sense. If tx fees are rising, then why would they ever be expected to mine for free?