Maybe I should've been clearer, but was just trying to stick to same terms the OP was using. All things equal:

1) Sudden adoption: Both become centralized: Monero ❌, Bitcoin❌

2) Gradual adoption: Both remain decentralized: Monero ✅, Bitcoin ✅

3) Transaction fees: Monero becomes increasingly cheaper with adoption ✅, Bitcoin becomes increasingly expensive with adoption ❌

Also:

"Normal" txs: Monero is heavier❌, Bitcoin is lighter ✅

Private txs: Monero is lighter ✅, Bitcoin is heavier ❌

https://github.com/cypherstack/stack_duo/releases

try turning on "include prereleases" and it should work

Because it's relatively new to the scene. But it's great, I recommend it - my main wallet right now. Open source, non custodial, and privacy oriented. Diego "Rehrar" is behind it. Pretty well known person in the Monero community.

I think some things can improve to a certain extent, but others are just unavoidable trade offs based off the nature of lightning network itself.

So, both Bitcoin and Monero would both "break" if they saw sudden massive adoption. Monero would break sooner than Bitcoin, but the margin is not that big a difference. It's something like ~3x or ~4x tx size of Bitcoin. But Monero is far more efficient if you want your transcations private vs making a Bitcoin tx "private". Most of the current blockchain size of Monero is from the past when txs weren't reduced by ~80% of current size.

Bitcoin would be unusable to 99.9% of the world just based on tx fees if that happened, and at a slow rate of adoption this would still happen anyway. While Monero becomes cheaper per tx the more users there are.

So it all just depends. I think rate of adoption VS consumer tech advancement is the biggest factor.

Lightning cannot onboard the world either and comes with many downsides vs on chain. In high fee environments it is not particularly cheap, and keep in mind your channels can always be force closed against your will making you pay high on chain fees. npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v

Agree with you. Just different use cases. Bitcoin or Monero can't do it all. Spread focus too thin between many things and you'll suck at everything.

I partially disagree with comparing Monero to Lightning. You're comparing an L1 to an L2 instead of another L1. And with that comes many downsides to Lightning (requires active node to secure your funds, less secure, requires funding channels to use, centralized hubs, only the illusin of final settlement, not truly p2p, etc, etc)

All without ever achieving solid privacy in the first place. Reciever privacy is bad and amounts can be derived by a passive adversary. Sender privacy is ok.

In a high fee environment, Lightning isn't that cheap, and unexpected forced closed channels make paying high on chain fees unavoidable. npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v

Lyn what is your opinion on Monero?

Your blockchain is public

Lol

When did I claim Bitcoin isn't absolutely scarce? You're fighting your own ghosts 👻🤛

That would be a good argument against me if it wasn't a strawman. I use what is good for the job. Not an emotional ball of cope like yourself that thinks public chains are more private than Monero. LUL

He thinks just because you can at some undefined point in the future break Moneros privacy that it is useless (the present moment doesnt exist to him). He also thinks no one can save LNs data to break in the future while ALSO having shittier privacy right now. Pretty weak.

But you won't get very far his defende mechanism is to throw endless insults and gets really emotional to any argument about it.

You never addressed the fact, the constantly hardforking shitcoin (your sentiment not mine) LN has shitty privacy right now ON TOP OF potentially risking "temporary" privacy as well (government, IRS, chainalysis can easily save that data to break in the future). Worse all around.

#Real Bitcoin LN:

Maybe Alice sent $X to Bob

Your reciever privacy blows and amounts can be discovered. And all criticisms of "temporary privacy" also apply to LN as anyone can be collecting that data to break in the future as well:

"We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability."

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf

Your hardforks also apply to LN. You kick out all users that disagree. Congrats on the cognitive dissonance 🤙

You don't have an answer, just constant snark, because you have no answer against private fungible digital cash. The orginal intention of Bitcoin and the white paper.

You are also too smooth to realize you can use both for their strengths.

npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v

There you have it again.

Instead of acknowledging that LN offers shitty privacy now, you decided to call #Monero inferior. And the same risk of "temporary" privacy applies to LN! Anyone is free to centrally save all that data now to break in the future! 😂

So, tell me why don't you keep your whole stack on LN? Could it be all those trade offs i mentioned?

What happens in high fee environments? High lightning fees and force closed channels that make you pay high on chain fees anyways 😂 and without privacy it is moot anyway. LN is a farce

True, but ceteris paribus, fedimints will always have additional layers of trust on top of the the aspects of trust that are already present with Bitcoin/Monero.

Fedimints are faster and more convenient for sure. I'm sure many people will use it because most already value that trade off with other things. I'll mess around with it too.

Yea, I agree about the module things. More options is better.

Good for you. You're stranger to me. Argument from authority? I am definitely hesitant to take you seriously now 😂

You addressed not a single rebuttal I brought up. You are now telling me: "bro you are wrong trust me I'm an expert"

Tell the Free Markets (AKA Darknet Markets), Bitcoin's birthplace, that no one uses Monero. The true test with REAL skin in the game.

Close your eyes and plug your ears to Bitcoin's privacy and real world fungibility problems.

Six month hardforks is an exaggeration. Necessary hardforks to improve privacy and efficiency. No contentious hardforks because Monero users value protocol improvements. Unlike 2017 Bitcoin blocksize wars and segwit half measure. Couldn't even avoid userbase splits even without hardforks. Meanwhile Bitcoin still has zero default privacy and coinjoins are weak obfuscation.

Monero has strong default privacy, real world fungibility, and magnitudes cheaper txs fees than Bitcoin. Monero is a better p2p digital cash. Bitcoin can excel in it's SoV niche.

You're going to have to backup "mediocre to provide any meaningful privacy improvements" comment while Bitcoin transaction graph and amounts are completely open.

Monero:

Maybe Alice sent $[?] to [?]

Bitcoin:

Alice definitely sent $X to Bob

No one is forcing you to store your wealth in it... You can't walk and chew gum?