Is Monero a shit coin? Serious Question.
nostr:note1qmzk49uj0lw93e3vguruuv0lyd9jh9skcjyzhtntl4x9prcggyxsyjv9jp
Discussion
Yes but a useful one
It's not, but it's considered a privacy coin that supposedly has more privacy than btc.
Only the maxiest of maxhards will say it's a shitcoin. But they will agree its not bad out of all the shot coins. It's just not *their* chosen currency.
only people who don't understand that lightning uses onion layered encryption like Tor does think that bitcoin doesn't already have an answer to monaro
you forgot to mentioning for opening or closing a lightning channel you need to make a transparent on-chain transaction on the bitcoin network.
+ it doesn't works for large transactions, good luck to find an anon lightning route who let you move let's say 0.5 btc in one transaction if you have to..
lol, yeah, i'm sure literally dozens of people need to send half a bitcoin on a yearly basis at all lol
also, money comes in, money goes out, when and where and from who, only you and the sender knows, the intermediaries know as much as middle hops in a tor circuit
i don't sneer at monaros for nothing, you guys literally don't understand how lightning works or how actually most people use money
Don’t people go into shops and stuff and use money in the exchange for goods and stuff?
The few people who can and want maximum privacy will probably use Monero.. the ones who doesn't care send it to big exchanges anyway..
Even 0.01 btc can be a problem with some lightning wallets. Most of the large capacity lightning nodes are custodial or running by a kyc exchange like bitfinex.
this is the new cult of monero narrative now
"but we need to be able to pay of the value of an average car like maybe once a year, but muh monero" lol
payments that size are usually for stuff like a whole car or a small piece of land
everything else can be moved around in small amounts
and you can use tor and only ever make spends or give addresses to send to via tor
you have to do that anyway even with monero, even if there is obfuscation about the payment when it appears on chain
the use case just doesn't exist for monero, and you'll eventually figure that out when it goes to zero
I said this amount as an example, but it's also true for 0.01 btc and it's not an incredibly uncommon amount.
What i mean is that lightning with its privacy works for microtransactions, for anything other than that you have to go on-chain with some tradeoff on privacy.
With monero, whether it's a micro or large transaction, privacy is on by default on-chain.
yes, but necessary. Monero can be consider a lab to test privacy options, that maybe in the future are BIPs 🤷♂️
Yes, e-cash built on Bitcoin will take place of it
I'll give you a chance to prove yourself. open up tor browser. if you're really lazy, open up a tor tab in brave browser. go sign up for dread and try to shill cashu to the DNM people who congregate there. see what happens. maybe someone on there is brain damaged enough to fall for it, but you will most likely just get laughed out of the room. ecash is custodial garbage.
Nah. Maybe doggie coin stealth payments or something
ecash is custodial
so no
that said
if BTC implements strong privacy i will happily use it
Ecash is already a non-starter as a replacement for Monero. It's custodial. Even Calle the creator of Cashu has said this.
Is privacy and anonymity a shitcoin? 🤔
IMHO no.
If bitcoin is gold.
If litecoin is silver.
Then monero is either platinum or palladium.
It serves a purpose of my money is none of anyone's fucking business.
That being said. I don't own any.
Tried to solo mine unsuccessfully. No exchange I use offers it. So unless some monero bag holder wants to be generous donate some of my first monero to me. I don't think I will realistically go out of my way to add it to my portfolio.
Monero is more like stacks of non-sequential $100 bills. It's an awful store of value. But it does provide privacy, which beats bank accounts, and can be transferred without physical travel, so there's some value add. All depends how much you're willing to pay for that in devaluation while using it. Given how much fiat gets wasted muling money around in the conventional financial space, this seems to suggest that monero is here to stay -- it just shouldn't be mistaken for a great savings vehicle.
Especially when the tools from Samourai Wallet (and the now forked Ashigaru Wallet) do a lot to close the gap using bitcoin-native methods.
Samourai no longer has Whirlpool, it was shutdown, so the privacy offered is considerably less than what it once was.
And even then it's privacy wasn't cheap, fast, or as robust as Monero offers. It also required you to run your own Dojo which most users simply aren't going to do.
You can easily coinjoin BTC with Wasabi nowadays. You pick your own coordinator, they don't run one for obvious reasons. Works flawlessly.
I thought it was cool what Kruw did to help decentralize the servers, but there are still a few disadvantages vs Monero
Largest inputs in a round have less privacy
Non-uniform amounts (more vulnerable to amount analysis)
Smaller anonymity set especially for recievers
Liquidity isn't shared between different coordinators
Still more expensive in tx fees
What about stonewall 1 and 2, ricochet, and stowaway? Did they go the way whirlpool did?
Haven't had a chance to do the research on the back end -- didn't realize any of this was centralized enough to be shut downable.
Stonewalls and Stowaways are still possible I think.
Not sure what was so special about Ricochet, but it's down too - it just moved your coins a few addresses before sending to an exchange which anyone can do themselves.
Sad part is they were in the process of decentralizing coordinators for Whirlpool and implementing Monero atomic swaps. Suspicious timing for the feds to show up for sure.
You can buy Monero peer to peer on Bisq, for instance.
Do you have a link to the project?
https://bisq.network/ official website.
Advice: do NOT download or use Bisq2, which is a half-assed, lacking version very far away from being functional. Stick to the original Bisq that you can download from the same website.
I understand why people like the privacy aspect.
I think that there will be layer 2 solutions that help and that Monero will go to zero when measured in Bitcoin.
....time will tell
for now, I say 💩.
So there's no middle ground between Bitcoin and feces to you in terms of monetary value?
The average pair of socks and shoes "will go to zero when measured in Bitcoin" too so are they shit?
Some people don't mind shit. I do.
So you mind the socks and shoes you call "shit" but not the actual dog shit that gets on your bare feet when you step in it because you don't own socks or shoes?
I pick up the dog shit and dispose of it in a compost pile. Then I feed the dog and pet him. And we play with the dog. I don't step in shit even with shoes on because some people actually manage to clean up more than just themselves.
What does you thinking you're better than people who walk normally have to do with the cryptocurrency analogy? Explain
I don't care if you buy or use monero. Shit people should shitcoin. One day they will get bitcoin at the price they deserve. The price might be shit shoveling.
Have fun staying poor, retard
Respond little shitcoin snot.
You're so desperate for attention you start begging for replies after less than an hour when the person you're talking to hasn't shown any activity in that time
But you're not desperate enough to try leaving retarded attempts at bullying out of your begging?
Kill yourself
Now you're the one failing to respond after over an hour when I asked you to explain what your careful walking had to do with my analogy
I did not get the notification. Cleaning my environment.
You forgot the part where you apologize, but you don't seem capable of doing better anyway
Monero is a shitcoin for shit people.
Change my mind.
Here's the post you were replying to again since you seem confused
Yeah they've been promising them for years now .
Meanwhile monero keeps providing good privacy with a good user experience
Also
go to zero what? Maybe think about what you're saying?
"i think that my chain will be worth more Fiat in the end" i's not the mic drop you think it is
Hey we all think there should be a privacy solution for Bitcoin too. But that's yet to manifest in any simple or comprehensive sense.
e-cash layer 2 is exactly this.
sorry monero 🌼
For me a shitcoin is a coin who doesn't have any utility, just speculation, scam projects with sketchy team, memecoins...
Monero have a utility for privacy, the transactions are anonymous and can't be traced, by default on-chain. There is a small inflation on Monero forever. So it's not a good coin for a store of value. It's best use is for buying and selling stuffs in a private way.
I would like to point out that Monero has less inflation than gold does and gold has been used as a store of value for thousands of years. Even the World Gold Council says that gold inflates at an average annual rate of about 1.5% per year, where Monero is 0.8% per year and falling asymptotically towards zero. The inflation rate keeps miners mining the chain because they have an incentive to do so and it replaces lost coins through lost private keys.
Monero is what people thought bitcoin was when they bought it.
It's the only currency that's actually used.
Imagine bitcoin but there's no such thing as chainalysis. That's Monero.
If it would be shitcoin, there would be no need for Europe Union to block it 🅿️
Yes. It's functional, sure. But it's too opaque to be trustworthy and it's use case will be taken over by Bitcoin. The market reflects this if you look at Monero priced in Bitcoin. It only loses value.
DNMs don't want to use bitcoin. bitcoin is scaling via custodians. DNM people want to interact with custodians as little is possible. these are the first people who invented multisignature escrow and baked it into custom built ecommerce software. they are absolutely never going to adopt cashu. they are not going to just leave all their money with a trusted third party nor do they want to pay bitcoin onchain fees to maintain self-custody. they need something that makes self custody more scalable or they won't use it.
The unreasonable thing about your thought process is it ends with saying "shitcoin."
The difference you explained sounds smaller than the difference between Bitcoin and feces, unless you consider Bitcoin just barely a tiny bit better of money than feces.
Oh yeah I forgot to call it a shitcoin. Thanks for reminding me. Monero is a shitcoin.
A shitcoin is anything that is not Bitcoin. Monero is not Bitcoin. It is a plaything for privacy weebs to larp about how mysterious and secretive they are.
You didn't forget to call it a shitcoin, retard. I am sorry you think Satoshi Nakamoto's invention is barely a better form of money than feces.
Things are shitty for reasons
dismissing something simply because "its not bitcoin" is anti intellectual.
Bitcoin got to where it is today because of critical thinking and preparing for adversarial scenarios. it is not perfect and it makes tradeoffs.
you actively work against that ethos with your moronic maxi attitude.
if bitcoin had scalable self-custody and monero-level privacy I would love that. but it doesn't have those things. it is failing to scale without custodians and it cannot offer a level of privacy similar to monero without exposing users to rug pull risk. I want it to overcome these problems but I don't think it will ever happen.
you already trist cryptographic primitives more complicated than the range proofs than guarantee monero supply.
y'all act like you're always personally verifying the BTC supply lol
It’s a hot potato. Nobody wants it. They just want to use it.
To be fair, a potato is better than shit.
Yes
Me using this thread to see who I need to unfollow
a tail emission is not "infinite supply"
When does the supply stop growing?
as I'm sure your aware
Monero has a .6 XMR block reward in perpetuity
so you *could* say "as time approaches Infinity so does the supply"
But at any given point in time the supply is known.
That is not "infinite Supply"
Even by your intellectually dishonest definitions.
You didn’t answer my question. When does the supply stop growing?
I said
"Monero has a .6 XMR block reward in perpetuity"
thats means it doesnt stop.
which answers your question.
i feel like you have reading comprehension problems.
Don’t insult me, I haven’t insulted you. If you’re not capable of having a civil discussion then I’ll just mute you.
If there is no supply cap and the supply growth never stops, then the maximum supply is infinity. On an infinite timeline, the supply of monero trends toward infinity.
Idk why that’s hard to admit. That doesn’t mean monero can’t be useful in other ways. USDT is a shitcoin with an infinite supply but is still useful.
fair enough
I literally said exactly the same thing in the above note.
i just pointed out that "trending toward infinity" isn't the same thing as "infinite supply."
because at no point in time is the supply infinite.
to elaborate a bit to get the convo going
An artificial hard cap is a knee-jerk reaction to fiat insanity
it is not good monetary policy
It isn't rational to criticize Monero for an inflation rate that's lower than gold.
As if gold hadn't been a stable store of value for thousands of years...
I guess that’s where we differ. I think gold is a shitcoin too. Gold shares a lot of the qualities of other shitcoins. Obviously no maximum supply, we can find gold in the ocean and in space. You can’t trade large quantities of it across large distances efficiently. You can’t cross borders with your wealth in it. Its effective use needs a 3rd party. Gold was good at one point in the past on a small scale but it’s not great today.
bitcoin's effective use needs a third party. bitcoin developers have utterly failed to deliver scalable self-custody. now they are only able to scale via custodians. this is why you see so many people cheering for things like cashu, or institutions buying bitcoin and leaving it on coinbase. it is scaling via custodians. in a mass adoption scenario only ultra wealthy computer nerds and banks will be able to own their own coins, and everyone else will be forced onto a custodian whether they are responsible enough for self-custody or not. the custodians will have the power to nullify all the other benefits, even the fixed supply, because they are issuing IOUs.
And what if you’re wrong and developers continue to improve second layer solutions that don’t rely on 3rd parties?
fucking do it. I'm still waiting. please knock my socks off. I expect bitcoin to give me scalable self-custody that doesn't require a degree in installing gentoo, and I expect monero-level privacy at the same time. but it doesn't have that right now.
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Why do you not expect bitcoin-level returns on your monero bag?
a lot of people are into cryptocurrency (yes bitcoin is one of those, satoshi called it that) because they expect returns. and they won't interact with anything that they are not certain will give them returns. they may even think that's all there is to it. if you are one of those people you are gonna be really confused when you meet someone who doesn't care as much. I don't need returns to convince me of utility. it's nice when it happens. ideally I should be getting both. but if I am getting returns but not the utility I want, I'm not going to think that's enough for me. if that still confuses you, too bad.
I literally don't think that bitcoin is going down the path of scalable self-custody. I think most of the developers either don't care about that anymore or they are too chickenshit to do any opcodes that may be required. it's going to take a lot of shifts in the community to change my mind about this. if it happens, I will be very happy. but it is very frustrating for me to sit here and see people shilling ecash as a replacement for monero right now and bragging about all sorts of things that actually haven't been accomplished yet and might never happen at all. I'd love if bitcoin actually became good enough to replace monero. fucking do it.
I basically agree with those points regarding gold.
but we're discussing supply inflation.
and gold never became a poor store of value because of supply inflation
iow
a fixed and immutable supply isn't a requirement of money.
doing so has tradeoffs like everything else
but talking like its a necessary property of money is obviously contradicted by history.
Fair. So the tradeoff is that everyone on the monero network pays for maintaining the network through inflation whereas everyone on the Bitcoin network pays to maintain the network when they transact. The main takeaway is that everyone has to pay in some way.
yeah exactly
the general game theory on this is usually expressed through the "free rider problem"
basically
when there's network security cost and only a subset of users pay for it (people making txs)
everyone tries to be a "free rider", ie part of the group that *doesn't pay for security (hodlers).
according to the theory,
the security of such a network trends towards zero.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem
whether it works out that way in practice is of course another story.
but the point I want to make
is that tail emission is a legitimate tradeoff.
there are other tradeoffs Monero makes that can be criticized
but its not reasonable to argue tail emission makes it shitcoin IMHO.
Do you hold bitcoin for savings at all?
of course
Sorry for butting in, but I think almost no one who supports and promotes #XMR is dumb, fanatical, or narrow-minded enough to not recognize #BTC. Sadly, the same can’t be said for the “BTC-only” crowd when it comes to psychological traits and intelligence.
I don’t really have a problem with monero. But a lot of monero shills come at me very aggressively and it’s pretty annoying lol
I value privacy but I have concerns about whether monero is liquid enough to function as a p2p cash alternative when I’m ready to spend my bitcoin. Large bitcoin whales buying in and selling out of monero is not practical because it’ll make the price more volatile. I know bitcoin is volatile but that’s part of the feature of bitcoin. Monero being volatile isn’t a good thing since it is being strictly used for transacting. Monero staying a small project and flying under the radar is probably best. Mass adoption is not realistic imo.
Them poor bastards always looking to dunk on the king (bitcoin) in good times.
Bro
We’ll use any valuable code and features in bitcoin when we’re ready, don’t worry about it
I’m not worried about nothing related to cryptocurrency. Rest assured.
Just the way you call a coin as “king” resembles me that song.
Serious questions:
When will be that?
Is there a roadmap?
No joke.
coming soon™
In today’s world, where we’re in a frenzy of technological evolution, it’s funny to see someone use “coming soon” (or something like that) to defend one technology over another for years. And these excuses get thrown around left and right with no shame. Some even use them with a bit of pride.
No one here used coming soon.
New features and tech take their damn long time trickling in to bitcoin.
That too is a feature.
I've remember when they said that lightning would be private
Hey!! Don’t push them too much: BTC is a cheap cryptocurrency, have a really small network and the mining reward is smaller. They don’t have time nether resources to implement the coming soon features.
Bro don’t get sarcasm should avoid discussing. Pachorro Out!
not really.
maxis are much more prone to find opportunity to dunk
and much LESS interested in discussing nuance.
also they famously are widely NOT interested in using new code with new features and often are fans of premature ossification.
legit concern
i solve this by having a stack of monero as well and move between the two just a few times per year
which means my fiat net worth is lower than it would be otherwise
but I'm highly critical of the maxi attitude that everything should revolve around maximizing your fiat equiv buying power
h/t nostr:npub1m5s9w4t03znyetxswhgq0ud7fq8ef8y3l4kscn2e8wkvmv42hh3qujgjl3
it's both for monero actually. the network security budget is funded by both tail emission and transaction fees. but the fee revenue is not very significant. monero has about 20% of the daily transaction count of litecoin. if it gets used more then a greater share of the security budget will come from transaction fees.
Not everyone. Holders don't pay, but they benefit, and those that spend subsidize the security on behalf of those that don't spend. It's a big problem that will increasingly become obvious as it rears it's head in the coming decades. I wrote up some detail on it in the linked note and more in the thread it is in
The holders paid to secure their wealth when they initially moved their funds to their wallet. It’s just that there isn’t an ongoing cost to holding it. But wealth that never moves is not beneficial. At some point they have to move it and pay a cost.
I think that energy will become cheaper over time but also that bitcoin will become more valuable over time as well. The subsidy continues to shrink but Bitcoin’s value continues trending up while hash continues to rise along with it.
Time will tell.
There is an ongoing cost to holding it. Your wealth is secured by the network, without that security, your wealth is worthless. That security you get is subsidized by spenders, and this has incentive/game-theoretical implications for the bitcoin network that are not good. You can have the rarest of assets and if it can disappear while you sleep it's not worth anything.
Energy becoming cheaper... As energy becomes cheaper, people spend more on it by raising their energy usage. This is commonly observed everywhere in the world, and so far, empirically, this has held true for the bitcoin network as well.
I explained all of this stuff the other day in more detail in the following note, as well as another note in the same thread, if you want to give it a read to get a good idea of my thoughts on the matter.
Found this post that gives an alternative perspective on energy demand. Read the first section on AI energy use.
“But energy demand did not follow in the same way … Between 2010 and 2018, global data centre compute increased by more than 550%. Yet energy use in data centres increased by just 6%.”
https://newsletter.humanprogress.org/p/weekly-progress-roundup-35e
I'll read it, but just your quote says demand went up in the study, not down, which is what I'm saying. Compute increased 550% and energy usage 6%, if your projection was right it would've gone up 300% or something and energy usage gone down. That's not what we see empirically anywhere in the world. Where efficiency goes up, new energy demand outpaces it.
There is no second best Tara
Bitcoin is third best so a Bitcoin maxi would wish there was no second best
last year chart Monero vs Bitcoin
But don't you people call doggie coin a shitcoin too?
Guess what you could potentially have your BTC stack go to zero if governments and criminals can simply trace your transactions and monitor the blockchain and just $5 wrench attack you. Ask BTC Sessions friend how that worked out for him.
Not really. It's a privacy coin. Any app or website or whatever that works with cryptocurrency should have monero set up for people that use it, but other coins are probably better for savings.
nostr:npub1lxzaxzge0jq9u9cecucctdt5lslwgp7hcxmp2l0wn8r2ecjenwasu6svxa
lolol
not according to Amir
Yes.
Bitcoin is all about seperating money and state. In front of their eyes. And they can do nothing about it.
Total transparency gives trust and auditability to all everywhere.
The reason government don't like this mainchain superpower is because they lose the privilege of standing behind the curtain. Bitcoin audits their corruption.
Governments will probably choose monero over bitcoin if it was an pick one situation. Shitcoins trend to zero against bitcoin.
wut?
Blackrock is buying up BTC and maxis are cheering it on,
meanwhile they've pressured almost every CEX in the Western world to delist Monero
and you say governments would pick Monero if they had the choice??
That's just obviously not what's going on.
Governments want secrecy and control. Monero and fiat are similar in that regard. By using fiat governments retain both. They will never choose monero because it is inferior to fiat gor yheir purposes.
The reason governments are buying bitcoin is because game theory is forcing them.
If fiat was not an option then corrupt institutions would prefer monero to bitcoin to obfuscate their criminal behaviour.
One thing criminals don't tolerate is competition. They have no sense of freemarkets because free markets are morally ethical. Fiat monopolists won't tolerate monero as they won't tolerate a moneyprinter in your basement.
Bitcoins ethics forces governments to play nice otherwise they look like dictators when they ban it putting them in a hot seat with their constituents.
Bitcoin forces behaviour where monero obfuscates action.
You decide which is superior and allocate accordingly.
found the Breedlove fan.
i prefer facts and information to arbitrary fantasy and hopium.
but as you say, the reader can decide.
I am also a breedlove critic. Do you want facts?
What facts? I'll go get them for you.
You have said nothing of substance yet.
This is not a conversation, just you on a soapbox spouting theory.
You don't know enough about Monero to criticize it
You're just regurgitating Maxi taglines to be a team player.
throw down some facts or GTFO
GTFO of where?
Fact:
Monero is trending to zero against sats.
Fact:
Monero is a musical chairs game trying to fix bitcoin like zcash, dash and litecoin. When the scheme fails some slowly some quickly everyone ends up back at bitcoin because that is where the honest labourer is going to receive fair wages and save value in. Forever.
So monero is fun. Cool beans. Might be useful.
It will be used by those who are dissatisfied with the properties of bitcoin. I admire bitcoin for the same reasons you dislike it.
Transparency. This is a fundamental divide.
ok there's one fact there
and its true the price is indeed lower than Bitcoins.
Fiat prices are indications of speculative interest by institutions and degens.
they do not measure value.
so it's really weird that people supposedly interested in freedom money bring that up immediately.
Free markets are better at discovering value and freedom is valuable and valued. The speculation is valuable too.
It is called signal. To measure signal you need an indicator. From the indicator you measure if your idea is good or bad.
It is so easy to understand a little child could figure it out intuitively. You are overthinking it.
Think critically before you wut? Makes you seem reactionary and stupid.
You are playing 1 dimensional chess. Elevate your thinking and you might win.
cool story bro
When clever people get tired of arguing many big words to many dumb people they revert and channel their intelligence into a single phrase.
Monero is a shitcoin.
If you have an honest, unbiased and intelligent mind you will understand this wisdom.
If you don't you are a shitcoiner.
That was not so hard.
Repeat after me. "I am a shitcoiner. I love monero."
Honesty is a good thing.
"I am a very clever person
that's why I keep writing replies to this one post online"
rent free. lol
Either you can fix the money, or you can play whackamole with intelligence agencies.
There is no try.
A fully surveilled blockchain isn't helping protect you from governments. Plenty examples of this like BTC Sessions friend getting a nice little knock at the door from the Canadian government to force him to give up his keys.
If you want to seperate money from state you need some way to additionally transact with strong privacy.
government / institutions buy the bitcoin, and sit on it, or rather let Coinbase sit on it. they then trade paper bitcoin and IOUs and futures and derivatives like they already do, not even touching the bitcoin that "backs" their financial system.
a transparent, auditable main chain exposes none of the shady business.
and they beat Bitcoin into submission. they never need to use it, they only need to "own" it.
That's why countries are continuously banning Monero and exchanges are delisting it. Because they like it so much.
Lmao
monero is a beautiful counter concept to bitcoin.
pow, hardfork-based, heavily used
People will call it what they like. Fact is it's useful and provides advantages that Bitcoin can't (or even lightning). Maybe that will change in the future guess we'll see.
You tell us 👀
"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo
"I looked at all the other major cryptocurrencies that had adjustable blocksizes and the only one that I thought that didn't completely suck was Monero" -Jameson Lopp
"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor
"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos
"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell
"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee
"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser
"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry
"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand
"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki
"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet
"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero" -Balaji
"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc
"Surprising number of Monero lovers on #Nostr. It’s the only altcoin that I consider has a community of actual cypherpunks with similarly aligned values as bitcoin." -Guy Swann
"Monero has always been the altcoin outlier for me, never a shitcoin because I have a valid use for it that I can't achieve with #bitcoin." -Peter McCormack
"I have an issue when Bitcoiners get so closed-minded and says Moneros a shitcoin. No it's not. There's some brilliant people there and there's a lot to learn...I'm a fan of Monero." -Nicholas Gregory of Mercury Layer
"Cashu isn't an alternative to Monero. Monero is cool." -Calle
"To me Monero is the litmus test in Bitcoin...Monero is such a good money just technically" -Ragnar Lifthrasir of Guns N Bitcoin
"There are altcoins out there that have interesting ideas, but they are very very rare...if a couple altcoins exist, like Monero, where they actually have an interesting idea and a different model that's fine." -Peter Todd
"Monero is doing the job that gave btc its start." -Ray Youssef
nice list
Nice compilation
Didn't Calle just shit on Monero recently?
Not that I know of, but if he did this was made over a month ago
Ah, mmmmh. I need to find the post.
Ah, I am thinking of this one
I guess he meant hold as invest, understanable.
Oh I thought you meant him specifically calling out Monero. Yes, I remember this one.
Having them consider Monero the best "shitcoin" is about all I can expect from a hardcore Bitcoin maxi is how I look at it lmao (Would never really expect anything more. Can't even imagine a maxi saying Monero is on par or better than Bitcoin. Can you?)
Them even saying that Monero stands above the rest of crypto is almost an admission and achievement in and of itself.
No
Wrong question
It should be - is monero permissioned or permissionless?
Ther is a permissionless principle in #bitcoin otherwise it cannot exist
Is bitcoin permissioned or permissionless?
Every one seems to miss this important point it cannot be both permissioned and permisonless.
Monero is permisonless
Bitcoin is captured by KYC
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle 
#Bitcoin is not even slightly captured by KYC. And the fact that there are more KYC exchanges is neither evidence of nor relevant to the idea that it is "captured" by KYC. It's an obvious result of simply being more widely available. That's all.
I get plenty of KYC free #Bitcoin, most of what I get is KYC free actually. Because its my money. I get paid in and pay people in Bitcoin directly.
Because the network actually has liquidity, I can use it as money. In no way whatsoever am I captured by KYC when using BTC day to day. I jsut zapped you 1,000 sats to prove it.
They came for bitcoin exchanges.
I did not speak out, I can do self custody.
Then they came for tumblers.
I did not speak out, I'm not some "darknet hacker".
Then they came for self custody, code, privacy.
I did not speak out, surely this is our right?
Then they came for me.
Who will be left to speak for you?
"I don't believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can't take them violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something that they can't stop."
F. A. Hayek
I mean, I agree with all of this and have been very vocal about the referenced issues and in supporting and using the associated tech… but I don’t see how these have much relevance to the point we were discussing before about Bitcoin having been captured — implying that these technologies and non-KYC use is no longer possible and it’s now a permissioned system.
People who use monero are stuck in a cul de sac. An lonely echo chamber of having a secret coin but no peers to transact with. Go to your local butcher and explain to him that bitcoin is better money but monero is better, better money so buy bitcoin and find a bridge and exchange for monero... Or download this wallet and I will pay you but you cannot pay anyone else later. Effectively trying to convince him to hold a bag of secret coins that no one he knows wants and the ones who want it are not going to tell him because it's a secret.
Good luck with adoption.
Monero adoption is like homosexualism.
No organic growth. Just plain recruitment.
No game theory. Just a bunch of lonely guys holding bags.
Another - Why don't the MXR'rs build a social protocol where people zap each other monero and they can all show us how liquid their asset is.
Oh, it won't work, because we won't be there.
FYI, if nostr had an option where you could choose to zap sats or monero I would stop using nostr because I don't approve of shitcoinery.
Fiat is a shitcoin.
Gold is a shitcoin.
Monero is a shitcoin.
GTFO shitcoin apologists.
You better stop using nostr then 😂:
Yeah nostr is open source so technically anyone can add for their own client that features while others remain Bitcoin only
Guess you'll be leaving then.
https://github.com/retrnull/garnet
Or you need to call the nostr CEO and complain
Already got that one.
Yes.
For all who say "bUt iT hAs uTiLiTy" ... money's only utility is being a SoV and being a MoE. All other features, including the preservation of privacy -> not. Study money.
And it already fails at being an SoV. Hot potato money.
I don't think a simple privacy protocol is enough to justify the value of an entirely separate money. The network effects and tendency toward consolidation in monetary networks is extraordinary.
I highly suspect the value of #Monero as measured in #Bitcoin will fall indefinitely. Maybe some of its network value will be sustained long term, kind of like Tor vs TCP/IP (open internet), but hard to say at this stage. Monetary transitions take a really long time.
I do stand by my comments that I think most of that community have cypherpunk values (rather than the outright stupid scams of the rest of "crypto"), and I think privacy is a very admirable value to be hyper focused on... but I genuinely don't think it keeps a separate monetary token alive on a long term time scale.
I think privacy will simply be a feature provided by many layers and networks that use BTC as their monetary base.
it simply cannot be a store of value. I see 2 possibilities. 1 they create some tech that will be replicated in bitcoin and monero dies. 2 they create some tech that cannot be replicated in bitcoin and some people will still move in and out when they need to do some black market/illegal transactions. I hope monero grows so it becomes relevant enough to get a really adversarial environment, and we find out how private it really is.
That's all the point bitcoiners are missing, Bitcoin is stuck in regulations compliance, if you add real privacy on it, wall street will dump it or fork it. Bitcoin will become the enemy and bitcoiners don't want that, they want Bitcoin as a "digital gold" so let it be traceable with no privacy, you don't want to be that bad, Monero is here for that 😉
None of the either/or dilemmas you’ve listed here are actually either/or dilemmas. They need to be for Monero to have a long term value proposition at all, but they aren’t.
This may be the most realistic outcome. I really think a war is brewing, bigger than the blocksize wars, and we'll end up with a hard fork
auditability, finality <--------> privacy, speed
base chain <--------> higher layers
It's nice to have options 👍
Monero is NGD tech
It's an altcoin going to zero against bitcoin. We can call it shitcoin for sure
It does not have a maximum supply and it is nearly impossible to audit the current supply
Monero does something bitcoin cannot. Like a submarine can do something a fighter jet cannot.
The bitcoin community (I have been a part of it since 2011) tends to be very black and white. And in general the concept of "shitcoins" is OK... sort of.
The vast majority of "crypto" is either terrible tradeoffs (Ethereum) or a downright scam in many ways (well also Ethereum).
Many people do not think the tradeoffs Monero makes are worth the payoff.
Personally? Monero will never be what Bitcoin is. Then again many of us do not think it is trying to.
And if I needed to send value to someone with the highest assurance that my transaction was truly private Monero would DEFINITELY be one of the tools I would use.
Call it whatever you want.
No. In fact, I think Bitcoin needs Monero devs. The Monero and Litecoin spaces have great ideas that could be implemented in Bitcoin that can make regulatory capture harder.
People are rolling out the red carpet for Cantor Fitzgerald, whom are signaling their interests to become the kingmakers of custodians. As far as I'm concerned, they're begging to get forked, and forked hard. Censorship resistance **IS THE VALUE PROPOSITION OF BITCOIN.** If Saylor, Lutnick, Cantor, all of these bitcoinbugs have their way, number won't go up anymore
In a way, both yes and no. It enables anonymous payments without the need to navigate the complicated processes associated with Bitcoin, such as purchasing through non-KYC platforms, using coinjoin, mixing via Lightning, or swapping. However, it doesn’t serve as a store of value; individuals who hold it typically want to sell it as soon as possible, much like a hot potato.
Monero is a source of really good ideas that need to be implemented into Bitcoin, so Monero *can be* a shitcoin.
Everything good must be consumed by Bitcoin eventually, in one way or another, or Bitcoin is not good enough.
I love this thread so much because of all the blind, and pointless fighting 😂.