Random thought for today…

In a world with already too much sex exploitation, the #Nostr protocol has continued to grow with more and more notes with women posting themselves naked, half-naked etc. the problem I see is that these notes have earned more #zaps then most devs and notes that hold value in themselves for people to be educated. I know that most men wouldn’t be ok with their girlfriends, and wives posting themselves naked for the world to see to earn money, let alone fathers. It’s time to end this and really stop objectifying women and treat them like ladies. They deserve it. #grownostr #EndPorn #MasculineMen #TimeForChange

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Discussion

Have you seen that movie “Sound of freedom,” yet? I posted about it last night. It’s incredible. It’s in the same lane as your note

No. I’m going to watch it with the wife though asap. Truly looking forward to it. Rave reviews

Bring tissues, man 😭

Great! Lol. Sounds like I’m going to be triggered again. Haha

I sure was

I bet. Just watching the trailer did it for me

Is it objectification if the person posting the image is doing it freely? If the person is an adult, why should another person’s opinion (or permission) matter? If a zap was sent and received, isn’t that an example of #v4v? How would you propose to “end this” on a censorship-free protocol?

I agree with your premise! If someone is posting themselves to be objectified however; and they are doing that by posting themselves naked, I believe they’ve devalued themselves and what a truly beautiful modest women should be. That’s beauty. If you want to zap a naked note, and you value that, then no one is stoping you. But I urge you to think deeper about how you would want your gf, wife or daughter to act. I’m all about non-censorship. But this has gone too far to too long. There’s a problem in our world and if you can’t see it, then we should all look a little deeper.

Respectfully, the advantage of an open peer to peer protocol is that no one can impose their preconceived notions on it. Some people might disagree with certain posts and other people won’t. The mute/block button exists for the kind of content you don’t want to see.

But you just imposed your position on your reply!

I did but not on the protocol or on others engaging with the protocol

Well if there is no moderation, the morality police don’t really get to decide. The rest just comes down to one’s opinion. You said “I believe,” and it’s your right to express that. Others will disagree and act differently than you might like, and it’s their right. It doesn’t matter what you or I personally think about what another adult does, even if it’s a family member.

There’s quite a bit of judgment imbedded and control implied all through this comment. The frame is still, “What men want.”

I get it but it seems like we have quite enough dudes, often in black robes, deciding what women can and cannot do with their very own bodies these days. The sovereign, equality perspective, especially on a decentralized platform, would be that women make their own choices and they accept responsibility for them. Everyone else’s choice in response is whether to use the Mute button. Just my .02 sats. Peace.

It’s weird how some people think “sovereignty” is only for men.

It’s weird how one’s disposition affects their interpretation of something. I read the OP as a challenge to men’s behavior, not women’s.

I don’t zap porn. It’s not my thing. IDGAF what others do.

It wasn’t my intention to insinuate you did brother. Merely observing that some saw this as an attack on women’s sovereignty, whereas I saw it as a critique of men’s behavior. That was all.

Either way, it’s a morality view vs. free expression, and I stand with the latter.

Fair enough. ❤️

I’ll put it another way. If #nostr became all about Nazi propaganda and it was filled with swastikas and pictures of Hitler, and I couldn’t mute it all and everyone I followed was zapping and reposting that shit, I might think, oh wow, I guess nostr isn’t for me, and I’d probably quit. But I can’t force anyone to act differently. I don’t see the level of “sexploitation” to be as alarming as nostr:npub14hq5lgadtyy9dhvtszq46dnl0s0xwdddqr7e32rdqqhma8a4xhsspxjjzu does, but I 100% respect his view that men can and should be better.

Then we’re not really in disagreement. I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive, just as you don’t. I don’t believe women’s behavior should be forced on an issue like porn/modesty/etc. Freedom should be maximized up to the point it violates another’s rights.

But I have no issue with attempting to convince either gender that a specific behavior may be bad for them, or that they should do better. The choice to listen or not should be protected.

🫂

I agree with you about being able to mute users and notes 100%. Especially if it were nazi propaganda. But this is propaganda of a different nature that I’m talking about. I’m just pointing out the fact that the “sex-game” is again being monetized here on #Nostr. We’ve turned a blind eye to this industry and we OUGHT to be better about it. What happened to treating a lady like a lady? Men need to be protecting them, providing for them and helping them to be virtuous and modest. That’s true beauty. Just my thoughts brotha.

Let the market decide

It is a morality issue for sure! I’ll press back a little with your stance on free expression however…if a 40 year old man/woman like to express his love (rape) on 5 year old girls/boys is that ok in your view? That’s their free expression…

No, that’s a crime.

But it’s free expression?…all laws are based on morality.

I was not aware of a law (in my country) that criminalized the consensual enjoyment of images of naked adults by other adults. Once you involve minors or sex trafficking it’s another story. The key word is consensual, as minors can’t provide consent.

So you are for morality over “free expression”…

I’m always for free expression, but I have my own morals that guide me, as I hope everyone does. If I were ever to see something like what you mentioned on here, I would not defend that person for posting it. Censorship-resistance doesn’t mean you can’t and shouldn’t be prosecuted for committing a crime in public. You do raise some interesting points though, about where to draw the moral line in respect to free speech.

That is a conversation as old as time. :)

Let’s be clear:

Two consenting adults doing a thing together: totally fucking cool

One adult doing a thing to a non-consenting adult or minor: not remotely fucking cool

I think the vast majority of sane people agree on that. It’s when we try to define all those words that things get sticky - and even those being very careful usually get shouted down for trying.

Things like “consent” and “minor” are not words with built in definitions, and both are under attack and not safe to assume. There are plenty of things that are very clear, like a woman who flat says “no” or the five year old in the example previously given. Can’t be clearer than that.

Which is why I said edge cases. Life gets complicated and we pass laws hoping for the best and doing what we can. We agree that they will guide us as a society.

Understand, I say this to expand upon my previous thoughts - not to disagree with you. I agree with your statement 💯

Great conversions edify all of us brother. We should have more of these types of conversations. I just see a problem if everyone has their “own” morals and nothing is objectively true anymore.

Good luck imposing your view of “objective truth” on anyone else though. I don’t agree with the premise because the discussion always turns to religion and nobody can ever agree on that.

Hahaha. Look, whenever someone posts a note, they are imposing their views whether you believe it or not. There will always be an opposition but I think at the very least having a good conversation like this should be had more. There’s a lot of evil out here in the world and if nobody does or says anything about nothing will ever get done. I appreciate you man! No disrespect at all. Truly.

"Express his love (rape)" is a pretty gross take, rape has nothing to do with love. Plus that is not expressing oneself, it is a violent physical assault. This is a stupid argument, and you should be ashamed for comparing this to consenting adults.

What’s up brother! My argument wasn’t against consenting adults at all. It was morality vs “free expression” however #[4]​ defines it. I was merely using an example of free expression

Your example involves another person. Whether it’s a child or not, when you involve other people, it is no longer expression; it is aggression.

💯👆

This, 💯. No one thinks violent assaults should be free expression. SMH.

With edge case exceptions, this is a very good starting point.

What’s the difference between aggression and expression? Does expression work itself out? Because I love my wife, I do things for her that makes her happy. That’s my “expression” of love.

Aggression and expression are not antonyms. Your wife mutually agrees to accept your expression of love, and that’s great! If you express anger by punching her in the face, then you are an aggressor.

I think what Daniel means by “freedom of expression” is the freedom of someone to use their own body however they see fit. We don’t have to support this, and there’s nothing wrong with criticizing it, but to use violence (the State) to stop these actions is immoral.

Respectfully, I’m in no way saying violence is ok. I think this feed got off my original point/thought I was making.

This chat didn’t need to be anywhere near this long.

Could have been summed up with:

The vast majority of trannys are mentally Ill pedos and they need to be kept far away from children.

Amen!

…, she stated with a lot of judgment and zero evidence.

Eh?

Well said

I mean I can understand where you are coming from. 😊 However, in a world where everything is constantly becoming more expensive it’s very hard to meet the living expenses with the average wage with a full time job. Many of us need side gigs to be able to live and have a roof over our heads. Some physically can’t work ft jobs and disability won’t even cover rent here.

#Nostr is the future of #freedom. People are becoming more open minded and not narrowed to society’s square box of thinking.

Life’s too short to live a life others want one to live.

‘Most men’ wouldn’t be okay with their spouse posting themselves, however they are quite okay with watching porn in general.

#Porn will never end.

We shouldn’t have to hide our sexual desires nor dim our authenticity.

Rather it means we make #zaps on #nudes, #photography or notes.

Let’s end judgments towards people who are just trying to live their lives, and make ends meet. 💜💫

Diversity of thought and opinion is a good thing.

One of the things I have found particularly pleasant about your presence here is that you have been very real and well-rounded in your content and interactions on here - which goes a long way to avoiding objectification as a "sex object" and strikes a truer balance of "real person expressing sexuality."

I personally find myself sitting somewhere in the middle of two opposing opinions here, which is probably part of why I've found your approach so refreshing.

🫶

Good points well made

Definitely 💯

Are these types of nsfw notes filtered out? I haven’t seen anything dodgy

No there not filtered out. Once your on enough relays, you’ll be sure to come across them

Are you on mostr.pub? (Or something like that?)

Ya, I think I’m on that relay

I think that’s a Fediverse relay.

Lots of animals over there 😆

Oh ya. It’s funny there wasn’t much help from my side of my original note I posted. Did you go through the replies?

Or was that for pollywolly? Sorry

For polly

I am not sure lol

You’d know.

But check your relays anyway

Lol … so basically if I start seeing too much dirt then disconnect from certain relays?

Yes.

It becomes much more boring then

Lool

Or just mute the user

👍

The necessary consequence of freedom (in the sense of permissiveness) is that both good and bad behaviour will be treated equally. This is why God instituted a government (as per Romans 13) to persecute unjust actions.

Nostr on the other hand is ungoverned and permissive by design. It has been designed that way because those who were in control of of the centralised systems were unjust themselves. The tradeoff is that we have to deal with unjust content, as there is now no one moderating content by any standard of justness. There is no government on Nostr.

We Christians need to learn how to navigate and Nostr for the growth of our sanctification, and the spread of the gospel. If you are Postmillenial, you know that Nostr will become a better place as the gospel spreads...

What you did right now, is exactly what we need to keep doing. Preach the standard my brother.

Amen brother. I am a PostMil without a shadow of a doubt and believe exactly what you had mentioned. Just trying to go out and teach people to repent and OBEY Christ, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It’s the only way!

Government is organised criminals and religions bless them on ruling. It's actually good that people actively zap sex workers, not government supporters

This is a baseless claim. Where have you found this to be true? Sources/evidence

I think whining about who gets zapped what amount is childish. You literally stated you’re upset that nsfw posts get higher zaps than other notes YOU VALUE. Why do you care what value other people place on other notes? Furthermore since you claim you value devs so dearly, why not increase your zap amount?

I just don’t understand your complaints here. It is censorship free. Value for value. What other people zap or who, why, what, when and how, is not your business.

Just being straightforward.

🔱

Right on dude

i prefer porn instead of the pedophile club you are supporting

True that

Im very bothered that the argument being made here is that the owners of these women might not like it.

Women are not owned by men, even if those men have put their penis inside them.

What is wrong with you that this actually needs to be explained to you?

I urge you to go back to the original note to start there. You may have missed some context. 🫡

Great that we can disagree and still get along with each other.

I come in peace!

Given that #nostr is decentralized by design, users who don’t want porn on their timelines need relays that filter out porn. Not sure if this is possible but I would certainly be interested. Porn is a dangerous drug.

At the moment, there is child porn on the public relays. I believe stuff like that needs a protocol level solution..

I agree 💯. Thanks for also seeing the dangers

nostr:npub15cpx3ras8rerwlsz43wncgpd85lrxvy4rp5p0zsp2ytgaywqhues8y6nda, this has White Knight vibes towards the end

Principally and personally, I agree with the sentiment that there are higher value choices to make to better yourself, but that’s my subjective opinion of value

I can’t judge for someone else what to value in this regard, let alone the right value for an investment or for apples vs oranges.

This is the market and most things the market provides are not what I value. It would be a really awful market that provided for only what I value, especially as my preferences change over time.

Then there’s the discussion that needs to be had of the flood of women that are CHOOSING to be sexually exploited & objectified through means like OF & PH. I have personally witnessed many women in my personal life actively choosing these avenues. Whilst complaining about men not desiring them because of their work choice, and claiming both are because of misogyny. You cannot profit off your willing sexualization & objectification of self and then complain about not being chosen as a desirable mate for long-term commitment at the same time. This is purely nonsensical.

Well said brother!

We need your voice here on Nostr more often

I do disagree on a lot here. First what has value is what people are willing to pay for, and it just happens that a lot of men like to pay for female bodies. So they have value. Dev work also has value, just a little less as it turns out.

Then there is the mystification of women and what they deserve. Women are just people, they dont need protectors, they don't deserve anything special, just to be free like anyone else. And that means they can choose to objectify themselves and market their bodies. Especially here on nostr.

It's 2023 and still men are telling women what they can or cannot do with their bodies...

Mystification of what they deserve? By what standard are you using to measure this? Are you aging it’s something we can’t know to be true or not?

You said that women deserve to be treated as ladies and by that you are referring to a mystical concept that is inscribed onto the female body.

Mystical concept? Says who? What standard classifies that as a mystical concept?

What I mean more precisely is what is it about the female body that invokes the ladie-like treatment?

I guess you would not say that male bodies deserve to be treated like ladies, and probably also not female animals. So there must be something unique aboute the female human body.

Since I cannot tell what it might be to me this feels like a mystical quality

It is indeed a complex and sensitive topic you've raised. While I share your concerns about the exploitation of women and the objectification that can occur, it's important to recognize individual agency and personal freedoms. Women have the right to make choices about their bodies and what they share publicly, even if those choices may not align with societal expectations or personal preferences.

In the context of the #Nostr protocol, it is crucial to respect the autonomy of individuals who choose to share intimate content. However, it's equally important for society to foster an environment where women are not pressured or coerced into engaging in such activities due to limited alternatives or unfortunate circumstances like human trafficking.

Regarding the issue of financial value and attention, it is understandable to be concerned about content that may receive more "zaps" or financial support compared to valuable educational contributions. However, the responsibility lies with the consumers, mainly men, to choose where they direct their support and attention. By actively choosing not to "zap" for explicit content, individuals can help shift the focus toward more substantive and educational contributions.

It's worth noting that while the internet offers various platforms for accessing explicit material, that alone does not absolve society of the responsibility to combat objectification and promote respectful treatment of women. Changing habits and attitudes require a deeper reflection on our values, behaviors, and cultural norms.

In summary, while personal opinions may differ on topics such as nudity, pornography, and prostitution, it is essential to respect the freedom of individuals to make their own choices. To address the broader concerns surrounding exploitation and objectification, society must strive for a cultural shift that values and treats women with dignity and respect. This entails examining societal structures, supporting alternative opportunities, and fostering an environment where consent, agency, and equality are prioritized.

Amen!

Some are indeed exploited and there is help in the Adult industry for them and it's why I took a classes and became an advocate for RAIIN.

Some are like me who happily mailed a copy of the paycheck for my first hour of pay in a porn scene to the math teacher that told me I'd amount to nothing at my high school graduation. It was more than she made in a day.

I wanted to do this since I was 18 and am I'm it eyes wide open and, lol, sure have been taken advantage of by people who regretted it in the end. I'm still here and will fight stereotyping about adult professional work until the day I die.

We fight the abuse too and the illegal abhorrence that exists.

It is a profession and we deserve the same respect as other because it should not be illegal to charge for a thing that I can give away for free.

Don't like it go ahead an block me but don't tell me it isn't a difficult profession that deserves NOSTR.

I appreciate your perspective and agree that the conversation highlights the complexity of the adult industry. It’s essential to respect diverse experiences and choices. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I also commend your advocacy for RAIIN and the efforts you’ve taken to raise awareness and provide support. It’s important to address the complexities of the adult industry, and your dedication to making a positive impact is commendable. Thank you for contributing to this meaningful conversation.

I appreciate the response after many months after my initial post. Can I ask a few questions to gain some better insight into where you are in life right now? Because I care, not because I want to diminish you

This feels too personal and challenging for me to answer. For the discussed issue, it doesn’t really matter where I am in my life. I’m not even sure if I know it myself. I kindly ask for your understanding and respect in not delving into personal details.

How do people have civil conversations anymore. It’s always one side pushing their morality and then when the other side tries to respond, it’s no thanks. So you push your morals and I’ll keep quiet…got it.

WRONG.

This is Nostr. Some husbands and wives respect their spouses adult professional work because they know the real world discrimination they face is Tribal and Religious cultural nonsense. NOSTR is exactly for them.

It's for tribal prudes afraid of nudity, respectful or sexual, too.

Spouses boyfriends and girlfriends DO respect it and sometimes even work together. People DO zap us more and still respect us as "ladies." aking a photo of your own asshole that other people not only WANT TO SEE but PAY to see it.

So wrong. This is NOSTR. So right. This is Nostr.

*Try Taking..

Don't be a lazy slob, curate your own feed. Don't be a totalitarian nut, let people do whatever they want with their bodies and their money, as long as there is no harm done to unwilling parties - who aren't lazy slobs who do not curate their own feeds, or snowflakes who get "hurt" by pictures of nipples.

Are you talking to me?

No