There is no nostr wallet war. There is Primal and there's the rest that either doesn't work, is a PITA to set up and use, or is centralized af.
We can complain all day about why nobody is running a node. We can wait another 10 years and it still won't happen.
The Cashu people will keep building open source magic internet money tools for today. Join us.
Hay que usar todas y todos los clientes, somos todos amigos
Everything has trade offs. Cashu makes abundant sense for an enormous portion of the population and applications. Privacy + convenience + good enough trust for small amounts.
Keep going. Godspeed to you 🫡
I will stick with my node. thanks.
but will run a mint if it is what it takes for others.
This is my approach the cashu mint on ln bits was hot garbage for me
I will never use the KYC Primal wallet, never!
As long as i can still use my node to zap in future nostr clients i have no problem
We have every possible integration with Lightning you can imagine. I can't think of a scenario where you would not be able to pay a bolt11 and be done with it.
great!
People have been wanting a unified API for all lightning node implementations and all sorts of custodial backends since many years ago. There were proposals, discussions, libraries.
LNbits was created as an implementation, in form of software, of that idea.
For a long time people misunderstood and misused LNURL thinking it was such API.
NWC is a protocol that was actually made to be such API.
Cashu can be seem as just an alternative protocol for such an API, a little more convoluted if you don't care about all the blind token stuff, but still you could just run your own node with your own Cashu server and connect to it only yourself from your own Cashu wallet. I guess it has the disadvantage of you having to expose an HTTP server, but it has other advantages too.
While there should be easy ways for normies to tap into zaps right away, the UX of running and LND node + alby hub has never been easier. I would disagree that nobody does this.
Alby is doing all the right things.
Is it a way to onboard 1M people? Nope!
It's not, but i would argue nostr in general isnt ready for 1M people. The major issue isn't onboarding users into zaps, it's better relays, imo.
I spend a lot of time in the asknostr hashtag helping folks out. Absolutely one of the most common pain points is figuring out how to both send and receive zaps. Usually, they will have their lightning address in their profile so they can receive, but they haven't yet connected their wallet to be able to send.
Or else they are Primal users who set up the integrated wallet on mobile and are wondering where it is on the web, or why they can't use the same balance on another Nostr client, or they forgot to add the lightning address to their profile...
The friction of getting set up for both receiving AND sending zaps from the same wallet can be exceptionally frustrating for folks.
Meanwhile, NIP-60 eCash wallets can completely alleviate this. Log into a new client? Don't have to set anything up. Your eCash is already loaded and ready for zapping, locked to your npub so it can travel with you from client to client. And even easier for brand new users. The client can add a lightning address for a default mint to their kind 0 profile at the time they onboard and they can immediately send and receive zaps.
I'm not saying it's not difficult or shouldn't be improved. it's a huge and amazing feature of nostr. I'm saying it's not an actual technical bottleneck for the ecosystem for prevention of 1m users. that's just my personal opinion
Fair. What do you find lacking on the relay side of things that we wouldn't be able to support 1m new users?
have you seen how many people are new to nostr and the moment they join they get harassed with "i tried to zap you and I couldn't, go watch this 10 hours of videos so I can send you 21 sats"
welcoming people with confusing chores is the opposite of the original intention.
I'm not saying that's what's preventing achieving 1M users, but it's certainly making some novel aspects of nostr overly opaque and confusing.
I believe one problem is that is very hard to even try and work together.
We already have all the tech and specs. At least more than enough.
But everyone is working alone. Which is good on one side, more trial/errors cycles.
But we might be at a point to join forces.
The fact that we do not have something like a discord channel for nostr devs is symptomatic of this problem.
Why Discord and not Flotilla?
Yes whatever works
I mean a discord-like channel.
But it should work :)
definitely need more nip29 clients. I want to write one soon.
I gave a try at Flotilla, but did not have a great impression.
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7erfw36x7tnsw43z7un9d3shjqpqtm99pgz2lth724jeld6gzz6zv48zy6xp4n9xu5uqrwvx9km54qaqzxmvs3 has group chats, not NIP29, but it works great... but it has no desktop app.
Honestly the telegram group for cashu works perfectly. And from there we can assemble to create a Nostr native client. Together.
Thanks for trying out 0xChat!
Actually, 0xChat’s open/closed groups do use NIP-29 groups. And we’ve already released a desktop version! Feel free to check it out
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7erfw36x7tnsw43z7un9d3shjqpqtm99pgz2lth724jeld6gzz6zv48zy6xp4n9xu5uqrwvx9km54qaqzxmvs3 group chats are compatible with Flotilla, too, so folks could use whatever NIP-29 client they want to participate.
Like this should work?
nostr:naddr1qpqrywrxxgurjceevc6kvdmz89nrjvpjxgex2cejv3snse35x3nrzephv5mkxvf58ycxxvtz89nxgctrvymxzdesvd3nqe3kxy6njdmyxcpzp8sm6p0dg8n65tw6r6dkfw96fzmfhv86kk3z63p2f9d3h722nvpsqvzqqqyctqm3lpvz
nostr:nprofile1qqsf03c2gsmx5ef4c9zmxvlew04gdh7u94afnknp33qvv3c94kvwxgspr3mhxue69uhksmmyd33x7epwvdhhyctrd3jjuar0dak8xtcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7208x3z's Nostr Talk space on Flotilla would probably serve this purpose well.
nostr:nprofile1qqspvmlq75689xnttagp50dx97yc0czck27gca49ua3vj5z8j9yxt6cpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wghxyctwvshsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ec8y6tdv9kzumn9wshsnpqeza had been doing a great job helping new users get their account properly configured with NIP-05 and zapping. I'm not sure what percentage of new users they're connecting with, but I see their convos with these new users all the time. It's a volunteer effort, but they're doing the work so it might be good to refer new users to them as a matter of protocol. And donate some sats so they can continue zapping new users in their effort to help get their lightning address and NWC configured.
Have you even read my reply? The #1 recommendation is to use Yakihonne, which has an integrated lightning wallet requiring no setup. If you've got a better suggestion, would be great to hear it 💚
> Meanwhile, NIP-60 eCash wallets can completely alleviate this. Log into a new client? Don't have to set anything up. Your eCash is already loaded and ready for zapping, locked to your npub so it can travel with you from client to client
not a bad point but nwc txs and balance is about the same
NWC is INCREDIBLE!
Hello! I just installed Nostr client on my handphone because I read that it was a decentralised version of twitter with less fascism. So far, it looks good. But after reading your post, here are some things I don't understand:
* Zaps
* Lightning address
* Npub
* NIP-60 ewallet
All of this is techno gobbledygook to me. Do I really need to decipher all this stuff to chat on a social network using my handphone?
Perspective
This is an awesome idea and you have been a great help.
I appreciate that! Just trying to do my part to make the transition to freedom-tech as smooth as possible for the folks who are coming over from the centralized wasteland.
**We urgently need something like NIP-60**
Wallet choice needs to be baked into the protocol layer or we lose… and this entire experiment becomes another walled garden We Chat / We Pay money travel rule compliant surveillance system.
Primal has proven it…
Primal KYC’s users and sends that data through Strike’s KYC API. They don’t make this explicitly clear. Both companies could integrate NWC, they have chosen not to.
This leads to a centralised point of failure and doxxes every wallet user on their platform, which ends up doxxing all of us. While Mallers goes around talking about “freedom”—there is no freedom without choice.
Use another client you say? that’s not the point. At a certain point one client could gain functional dominance. Non-Bitcoiners will eventually flock to NOSTR for freedom. Wallet choice needs to be baked into the protocol layer or we lose.
To be fair, Primal's wallet on mobile was in the works before NIP-60 was a thing, and they also wanted to have the ability for users to buy some sats directly within the wallet to get them started zapping. They built Primal with the assumption that their target demographic would be non-Bitcoiners.
Also, Primal DOES have NWC support on Android. Just not on iOS yet, and I have heard they are planning to add NWC for their wallet, too, so you can use it with other Nostr clients. Would LOVE to see NWC come to Strike as well.
That said, the inability to completely replace the Primal wallet with a NWC wallet, including balance and send/receive functionality in the wallet tab, is one of the criticisms I had about Primal on Android in my review of the app, which you can find at www.nostr-reviews.com
NIP-60 wallet integration as a standard among all Nostr clients is probably a ways off. We can't even get NIP-46 support for remote signing as a standard among all clients yet... Here's to hoping it catches on quickly, though!
“Primal's wallet on mobile was in the works before NIP-60 was a thing”
Primal could have done what Damus did on iOS, and still can… give users a choice. They chose kyc and no choice. Antithetical to this community, and a risk to everyone’s privacy.
Damus had to make some sacrifices in order to do so. You cannot zap notes in Damus. Not without going to a separate website the app doesn't tell you about. You can only zap profiles without this.
Apple is antithetical to the Nostr ethos. Not much can be done about that, though, except leave iOS users high and dry, build a web app that can be used on any OS, or play by Apple's fickle rules.
Clients make different choices. Use the ones that you agree with and avoid the ones you don't.
Primal is optimizing for new users who may not have any sats to start zapping, so they wanted to have the ability to easily purchase sats from within the app. Anything that touches fiat rails will always require KYC.
It's not my cup of tea, either, so I will not be using their built-in wallet any time soon. In fact, I won't be using their mobile app at all until they integrate Amber login.
Yet, I can understand why they made the decisions they did, even if I don't agree with them, and I don't begrudge them for it.
Exceptional work, the one you do on #asknostr
Please continue.
I have a question, where can I find resources for beginners that will help me learn about "cashu"
Here would probably be a good place to start: https://cashu.space/
Do you have any instructions on how to set this up?
What specifically are you looking for instructions on? NIP-60 wallets? Nostr Wallet Connect?
Following! I just have some default wallet and I don't even know how to access it.
Based on the lightning address in your profile, I am guessing you are using #primal
Your wallet, if you have it set up, should be found by tapping the lightning bolt at the bottom center of the screen:
I setup my original LN through Alby... wish I would have never done that. It has been a bad experience since
I am sorry to hear that. I have only ever had a positive experience with Alby. Been using it for years, and my primary zapping wallet is one I host myself on my node using Alby Hub.
Hey, what didn't you like there!?
Self custodial setup requires some effort and config, indeed - but we make it easier with each release, and are always happy to help!
One aspect a lot of people are missing here is App Store review policy. I'm not defending Primal, but I can see how they've made a conscious choice to play in the field of what's possible under Apple's guidelines (and Google's too, to a lesser extent).
If a NIP-60 wallet means the app won't be allowed on the App Store in most countries, that's a pretty big trade off.
Can an app with a NIP-60 wallet and that allows zapping of posts get approved? It would require a LOT of finesse, and perhaps some in-app-purchase scaffolding too. Also sometimes apps need to reach a certain size before they face higher levels of scrutiny, so these idiosyncrasies can sneak up on newer dev teams.
This! 👆
PWAs will likely be the only options for more open, no-KYC-required wallet integration, on iOS, such as NWC or NIP-60.
Yup. Though pushing PWA installs on iOS can be a real grind, the user has to know to tap the share icon in Safari, then the drawer comes up, but even then the user won't see the Add to Home Screen option, they'll have to scroll up the drawer again to the snap. And added to that PWA is just not a term that lives in the public imagination just yet.
It's getting better. There have been a lot of hurdles already hurdled, particularly those to do with notifications, but I still have sympathy for dev teams that grit their collective teeth and decide to go the native app / App Store route, taking whatever hit they have to take to get the app through.
Would this impact Alby Go or is that different? I know its NWC.
You'd think, but Apple apparently views Lightning wallets on their own as very different from social media apps that i integrate Lightning wallets for zapping content.
I wonder what their logic is there because I can't see a distinction.
In the one case, it's just a lightning wallet without any specific intention for what you should use it for. Alby Go has no intrinsic connection to your Nostr feed. You COULD be using it to zap people in a completely separate application that Apple has no authority over because it's not in their app store, or you could be using it to buy soap from nostr:nprofile1qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3vamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwpexjmt69ehhyee0qqsppdnxpjc82jlm3yn9gawhv7p4nm69a3f80rg5ycw305xned2s0hc6829nl 's website.
In the case of a Nostr client, where you have a feed of notes that each have a zap button. Connecting a wallet via Nostr Wallet Connect has the very clear intention of using it to zap that digital content. Well, now Apple is going to want their 35% cut out of those "digital purchases," even though we aren't purchasing anything.
Primal met their demands by allowing users to purchase a small amount of sats directly within the app, with Apple getting their cut from those transactions. Thus Primal was allowed to include zapping of notes without any work-around needed, while Damus had to leave zapping of notes out of their app and create a work-around to activate it after installation.
Defaults are important though, and one of the most common questions from Damus users in the AskNostr hashtag is, "How come I can't zap people's notes and can only zap their profile?"
I was wondering why on the backend of my site, when orders come in, it has the source of where they come from. Most just say "Direct" which I interpret that they came to my site, picked the product they want, and then paid. I only accept ⚡ btw. However, some orders have the source as Primal. So that's specifically a Primal wallet then?
Apple will look to see if value is being delivered and paid for inside of the app. If I'm using Alby to pay you for cutting my hair then it's fine. But if inside of Alby your virtual 3D barber cuts my virtual 3D hair then it's a different story.
First and foremost thank you for taking the time to help people on askNostr hashtag (TBH I have no idea what this is thought I am guessing its a hashtag id of some sort) users like you are critical for the continuing adoption of Nostr
Full disclosure I am not on here often because it is still a little to raw and requires more work then I am willing to commit to have a good UX on nostr
From a noob perspective this is the problem
NIP-60
eCash
locked to your pub
The client can add
default mint
kind 0 profile
Just one of these will stop a noob dead in there tracks link many together and noobs are already not reading
I am not the dumbest one in the room nor am I the smartest but from my perspective it just isn't worth my time to try and understand each one of these things so I can Zap and receive a few sats anytime I move away from my current client (Primal)
Agree that integration of this when onboarding is the answer Most don't know how the apps they use on smartphones work nor do they have to Maybe that is to their detriment but IMHO the lack of language that does not require hours of study to understand is also part of the problem
I 100% understand and agree with what you are saying here. My post was replying to a couple folks who do k ow what all of those terms are referring to.
Ideally, when a new user joins Nostr, they get a bit of hand-holding by the app they are using to set up their profile to introduce them to the basic concepts of having their identity here tied to a public key (npub) and private key (nsec) pair. Some apps are better than others at doing this.
From there, most things should just work.
The user's introduction to zaps should be by getting a notification that they received one and being prompted to go to the wallet tab to see their new balance, with a brief explanation that they can now zap others from this balance. They should have no need to manually set anything up at all.
Agreed Primal certainly helps with onboarding process but not necessarily an understanding of npub and nsec Bitcoin self custody is certainly helpful for those concepts and TBH most early adopters of Nostr are btcers who self custody I actually understood most of what you were relaying but I had to go slow to grok it and don't know all the details (haven't played with eCash) but I know enough to get the gist of it Again thank you for taking the time to help others it is admirable and necessary for continued adoption of decentralized social media LFG
I think coinos is a great option for users
Should I run my own #nostr #node .
Please read my posts, is it worth it for me?
Found your post and responded. 🤙
How do you set up a NIP-60?
That's the great part. On clients that include them, you don't need to do much of anything to set them up. If you have an existing wallet from another client, you can just select it. If you don't have one, the client will start a new one for you.
Thing is, most clients don't have this built in yet.
I'd love to see someone like MiniBits add Amber login support and the ability to use your balance in NIP-60 compatible Nostr clients without any need to "set it up" because the client just reads where your ecash is stored on the relays.
If you want to onboard millions, use the nostalgia of what MySpace was with the profile music, top friends list, custom profile themes...
And make sure every nsec is the wallet. 😉
"MySpace is back?" will go viral.
Could end up on national news.
all the comments in this thread are why I love bitcoin, lightning, cashu, nostr and the whole space.
some of the smartest minds on this planet challenging each others ideas and therefore progressing the space
thank you!
it's quite beautiful. we're all working on the same goals. there are no wrong answers, perhaps better approaches though.
agree, although I wouldn't want to personally judge better or worse myself; as I'm not technical enough.
however the whole culture is so different from large company culture. you show respect and appreciation by challenging another persons viewpoint or idea, rather than all this fake applause to move up the career ladder.
It’s like building a symphony together. There are different movements and there is a moment for each. We are just coordinating to make the music flow. Enjoy the dance.
I have a CLN lightning. But to get an lightning address it's more complicated. But I do have bolt 12 offers. Can we just have LND use bolt 12? Wouldn't that simplify things.
I don't know just asking.
we can't get anything without someone sitting down and building it
I built https://sendsats.lol so that anyone could get an lnurl if you have a public facing cln node!
What about the nostr side of things? Can we integrate it into the clients?
I think cln and eclair have bolt 12 active.
I'm not a developer so I can't help build, just sitting on the sidelines.
Coin.os?
