For sure. Though I would not be surprised if it's in fact well in excess of $1m per month if you take into account Jack's andotherstuff $10m, plus HRF, plus also the few VCs in the space.

The danger with the sugar daddy approach is that if the sugar daddy runs out of sugar then things quickly enters a downward spiral and the protocol can collapse to the point where it's a forever hobbyist thing. (You don't realise how dependent you are on the sugar until it's gone).

We're at a point where nostr needs to show growth. It's been flat for the past two years, and in those years plenty of events of the type that if they don't push people to nostr then what will? There is currently no indication that nostr can grow beyond 20k daily actives, let alone 1m which itself is still a very small number.

Nostr has to show that it can in fact grow, and in a hurry IMO. Opensats funds are donations from people and orgs that are generous but can't be generous forever.

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Agree - I was in startup onboarding and retention and these stats are not a good look. Nostr may be a protocol first but users need to see products first and great product people and iron fisted QA.

nostr:nevent1qqs84f8lj4laeeze58g6z68t86rgxzrrc0axuv5spvqyzjt39a9wskqzyqcx2407u3pntq4n9ak5dugmv3x6xwykt9gpdzfa0kscca0a0l03yqcyqqqqqqgcj50w8

What should we do?

Make money man!

That money is not going to come from the currently active lot of Nostr users because they are tiny in number and, if we’re being honest, kinda cheap overall.

That money is going to come from businesses. Look at your nostr stack, you’re sitting on B2B gold, if you forget about the current nostr userbase and focus entirely on using that nostr stack to solve problems for businesses then with what you’ve got there are some serious potential income streams there. Smaller businesses is fine, but businesses, not nostriches, not communities, not orgs, but good old-fashioned money-earning businesses.

How is this B2B gold? No business wants to touch it with a 10ft pole. What am I missing?

No business will want to touch nostr the censorship-resistant social network for freedom tech ruffians and generally disagreeable Bitcoin people with a ten foot pole. That's nostr the people.

But when you look at what problems the actual protocol tech (as decoupled from the people) can solve for businesses there are some big ones there. As in the tech can solve these problems without the business ever having to know that this part or that part emerged from a protocol called nostr.

I'm still not seeing your full vision. What business would you pitch it to, and how?

That’s a long post. Trailer goes like this. Start with identity in business systems, Okta, Entra (née Active Directory), Ping Identity, Google Cloud identity, the rest. These don’t work well for frontline workers, vendors, and so on, for many reasons, cost just one among them. And depending on the company frontline workers can far outnumber desked workers.

There’s bring your own identity, which is a thing (sign in with Google, as in your own Google, and so on) but now you’ve brought the worker's personal baggage into the corporate picture. Then you have to think how can nostr identity offer a more baggage-free BYOI? And the there’s OIDC in the background, how can that be bridged with Nostr (OIDC is ED curve but still doable). Sure a lot of work to augment nostr identity for a hybrid business setting, but doable, and could be pretty attractive if you can articulate to these businesses what it solves in BYOI realm (there is a solid pitch there).

Then once you see that there’s a use for nostr identity in the frontline and vendor space it’s about what to build on top of that identity foundation, vibe-coded internal apps that make sense for frontline workers in unique frontline situations. Shakespeare stack could rock that. (None of this touches nostr the existing social network in any way.)

We're rolling out a few things along those lines out in Asia, but never do we say the word nostr when describing what they are and do.

I think the lack of key rotation is the biggest obstacle to these things you mentioned. 🤔

Personally I think it's not a huge deal for users. But businesses will want control, and they'll see the key system as a huge vulnerability and oversight. It's optimized for user freedom, which in a business would enable stupidity in uncontrollable ways.

I've drafted a heretical centralized approach that let's the user still be sovereign over their root key

nostr:naddr1qqgrxwfj89nrvepkxq6njc3sxf3n2qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09upzqvr92hlwgse4s2ej7m2x7ydkgndr8zt9j5qk3y7hmgvvwh7hlhcjqvzqqqr4gu3jp7lg

Ignore Frost in the title, I took that bit out (looking forward to playing with my Frostsnap when it arrives.... soon!)

Business have full control. They control the relays. What's a key without read/write access to the business's internal relays?

Keep in mind this is BYOID, the bring your own aspect being something businesses actually want (often for legal reasons), they just want it to work better. For other forms of BYOID, such as a frontline worker using their own Google account to login to the company's slack, the company does not have control over that user's Google account and that's fine, it's the application or infra layer where control resides.

The real question is not why nostr keys for comapnies but why redundant websocket relays for companies

I'd be very interested to learn more about what you're doing here too.

Thanks, happy to share. And likewise.

I have to make a new proper nsec, this one is exposed and now garbage. That's my afternoon task!

Its the early hours of the morning here so, quick thought and can flesh out later.

1. I was vibing a docusign using nsec signing. Few lazy afternoon sessions and good progress. Docusign market cap $16.5B. I don't need or want to do another startup, let alone a replacement strategy play but a small team could displace chunks of the b2b stack with new economics. Pipedrive disrupted Salesforce. Can a nostr CRM disrupt Pipedrive because trojaning npubs into business is 🔥. But don't talk about nostr, talk about solutions.

2. nostr:nprofile1qqsphkn7raeed0dz68hejqea4r7jmsmzsyrephumuch4jypchwtufkgpzemhxue69uhkummnw3ex2mrfw3jhxtn0wfnj7qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucnpdejz7qgewaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8ymmyvf5hx6r0wqhxu7303hr2v8 may want to share what he is doing. Another sector with significant incumbent revenues and less friction.

3. The point being, products (not hobbies) first. Monetization is a deliberate act. Jack can code bitchat without concern for monetisation. But that is a byproduct of silicon valley success and mindset. I've built startups outside SV and you have to be pragmatic about monetization.

4. There was an excellent 30023 about a year ago by somebody who tried to build an app using relays as a data store and how slavish commitment to a protocol may be the wrong formfactor for the solution. Maybe some apps just stand on the shoulders of the protocol but aren't prisoners to its original libertarian ideology. It's a protocol so you need zero permission to use it in the way it serves your customers.

5. Shiny objects. Vibing clutters the landscape with broken projects. We need a badge for apps that have a product person and a malevolent tyrannical committed QA function that demands the product serves customers, not the autist hobbyist creator (I'm talking about me of course)

Back to bed.

Two $bn businesses here.

1. Video streaming sales. Whatnot ($5bn GMV), Tiktok Shop ($50bn GMV). Fast growth commission on sale model. But what is it? Live stream discovery and chat (NIP-53) and ecommerce (NIP-99). Build on Nostr rails solves chicken-and-egg, reduces time to market, and then pitch it to Whatnot users who can just use it, without knowing how Nostr works. I am building this with nostr:nprofile1qqsgthcq5tm2jxz9x4xg6tvlh26qq2actdpztwh2kc86lvjc03gr36spzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtcpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtcpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtckgrenr

2. ERP with workplace chat. Slack (aq by Salesforce for $27bn). SaaS MRR model. But what is it? A workplace identity (NIP-01) and SSO (NIP-42&98) system with chat and where data can move between silos (on Nostr!). Compete with other ERP and workforce systems on two key principles 1) interoperable with vast open source ecosystem for free. 2) no platform lock in ever, take all your data and leave whenever you want.

There are more. These bones are great. Just need businesses on them.

If you were to integrate the live stream component with a global/following feed with strict video nevents (NIP-71), could this potentially displace more of the b2b stack with that additional feature?

I understand it would be extending more into a “tiktok” replacement strategy play, but consumers will want what they are familiar with as long as they aren’t expected to handle the heavy-lifting technicals behind it.

I agree. There's lots of cross over. Creator interface for lives and videos is similar. Twitch/Kick profiles feature lives and clips prominently. Whatnot sellers clip hits from their lives and market those on other socials. Tiktok Shop sells product on both lives and clips.

One day!

For now very focussed on getting from lives -> live streaming sales and ecomm

Thanks for your interest

This is pie in the sky stuff. Like when olas beta launched and you had people saying nostr was the next instagram.

What slack offers businesses now is utterly incomparable to what any nostr slack clone offers now or can offer in the future. The same is true for say Okta.

It's about nibbling around the edges and solving problems that nostr can actually solve, now today. And not mentioning nostr. And soft forking it. And all this in the context of solutions where nostr's architecture offers some explicit advantage outside of some [music] future vision.

Well I agree to focus on Nostr's points of leverage, and not needing to name Nostr at the time you try to cross the chasm. But, I don't see any reason to pull punches, so if you're not pointing yourself at a $bn+ competitor incumbent then I would say you're aiming small. The benefit of aiming big instead is you're not taking any business model risk, you get to simply copy and incumbent and be a fast follower riding better rails.

Think big never hurts, but when you look at what Okta alone does, for IAM and the rest, a nostr equivalent (if you want to call it that) offers like 1% of that (and maybe with millions in investment in a nostr-based Okta then 5%). Sure with nostr you get bonus things that Okta can't do, but the things you have to give give up are non-starters for business.

The same for slack, nostr is just not an architectural basis for a piece of software that can do what Slack does, and giving up these things that Slack does again is a non-starter. Nostr at best can augment these platforms by filling in certain gaps or serving certain niche demographics.

For a reality check, the closest thing to Slack on nostr is chachi.chat.

Copy Bluesky

I don't think seeing incremental growth is relevant for nostrs success. Nostr is freedom tech. We need to build so that we're ready for a more adversarial landscape, whenever that crosses a threshold of encroachment.

For nostr I'd expect spikes of growth with declining flatlines in between.

I'd rather have an ark with no users before a flood, than not have an ark to fill once it comes as nobody had seemed interested during a dry spell.

Ultimately we're all here building because we see the dangers of growing centralisation around us. The question to me is will some big events come that spur a big movement onto nostr (I think likely), or will incremental authoritarianism go unnoticed (so far this seems to be the case - eg Tiktok coming under the fold without a big exodus).

So for now, let's build so that we can handle a BIG intake of users, and so that the nostr is newb ready.

Well said. This is how I'd been thinking of it for years. But we're in this weird post-pandemic era now that I'm not sure is gonna play out the same way again.

The thing is; you ain't going to see any growth when people's first experience is; a firehose of bitcoin/scammy/christian/libertarian stuff that's really in need of moderation... That's pretty much what people see, like it or not. I'd say most, if not all, just say wtf, I'm missing nothing here and never return.

And people that have tried a bit harder say they've been fleeced transferring crypto to sats with even the popular wallets compounding the scammy perception.

It's going to be a difficult base to grow from imho.

All of this would make sense if nostr wasn't being propped up by $1m - $2m in monthly subsidies + some investor funds looking for a return. We cannot ignore that money, nor can we ignore the consequences of the taps being turned off.

Well compare it to Mastodon. In that setup I just suffered for years making open source software for no money while being bullied online. But I would still go back to that before working at some dumb corporation. Maybe that's just me idk​

Who says work for a corporation? Selling to people who will pay cash for it is a good alternative to working for people who will pay salary for it.

Regardless nostr needs money coming in. Everything needs money coming in. All these people who are like, yeah, we'll just chill for 5 or 10 years, let those millions flow in to nostr every month while we sit on our porches and post about sovereignty and self-control, it's like, come on.

More practically, key rotation + perfect relay connectivity (without having to know/think/understand/configure relays) + privacy, and maybe some other 'tech' barriers need to be crossed so that we are on par with web2 before normies can come. Thus let's build build build.

The problem is you start adding all those things to make it a better experience and you end up with an incredibly complicated decentralized theatre protocol like bluesky.

It really does seems like the level of inconvenience/suck correlates directly with the level of freedom/decentralization.

Primal has the most user friendly nostr app experience but they have to do the heavy lifting on their caching server for you…effectively making a centralized window that aggregates the decentralized protocol’s hot spots and popular areas. It can’t continue this way as it doesn’t provide a better user experience than twitter, TikTok, instagram etc. according to the users that like those platforms … and it also is being effectively used in a centralized manner by many of the flagship clients that mostly imitate twitter.

The only thing that is really great is not getting banned — but only a small set of people have experienced getting banned on the major platforms and can appreciate it. Even now fewer and fewer people are getting banned on the major socials nowadays since zuck got buff and Elon took over X.

I lied there is another thing that is great about nostr. That it’s very easy to develop on. That’s great. I literally just spun up and am dog feeding my own client for everything I post here. I’m sure many others are doing the same.

Okay also how there are ads and stuff too and my data isn’t being harvested. That’s cool too. So another thing.

But how many people appreciate these things. Most people just want to go where their community is. Where their friends are. Where eyeballs are if they are selling/influencing.

When a decent Reddit tier nostr application is built that has robust communities and up and downvote to filter signal… I think that’d be a game changer. So many people rely on Reddit and it is still one of the worst socials banning wise and culture wise.

I'm harvesting your data

Noooo give it back!

Lots of great points. I think all are beyond addressable. I’m confident nostr in 1-2 years will be quite different and 3-5 years we’ll be laughing how it was back now.